I can assure you, that my T&C's have nothing whatsoever to do with Unions. I came in from the outside, agreed my terms after being interviewed and offered a job. No Union representation at my level as such
Thank you - Dunnes Stores.
- Thread starter Deiseblue
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In a country which is still borrowing billions to fund current expenditure, with a small open economy which trades internationally, with very high wages and very high income tax rates and which lost its competitiveness and suffered a collapse in its real and most valuable exports (manufactured goods and services from the SME sector) during the boom I really don’t understand how anyone can celebrate wage increases for very highly paid employees in an uncompetitive sector.
It is obvious that such actions hurt the country and so not serve the greater good. Such selfishness and destructive self-interest is nothing to be applauded.
Nonetheless the benchmark for such pay has long been set out by unions & employer.
I'm sure that you agree that T&C's for the vast majority of public sector employees whether unionised or not are at pay scales negotiated by Unions & employer.
I was of the impression that all levels of PS employees were represented by various Unions including management
I'm sure that you agree that T&C's for the vast majority of public sector employees whether unionised or not are at pay scales negotiated by Unions & employer.
I was of the impression that all levels of PS employees were represented by various Unions including management
Proud no , not even overly happy but I do sense a change in the wind.
Pay increase in a semi state , talks between Unions & the Government in the offing with pay restoration at the top of the agenda , massive public support for Dunnes stores strikers & an extremely lucrative & deserved deal for the Glass pensioners.
Now while the forthcoming collective bargaining legislation may not be all that I hope for it is a beginning & with the continuing electorate swing to the left ( a swing echoed by our political parties
) I believe that things can only improve from a Union viewpointOh & the Government talking about " social inclusion " !
As usual Deise, in all your praise for Unions and talk of workers getting payouts/paydeals....you never mention the Public or the services they're getting from these same organisations in question.
As I said earlier, Workers conditions first, the Public a distant second when it comes to the PS
As I said earlier, Workers conditions first, the Public a distant second when it comes to the PS
I think that Public Sector employees & their Unions showed a huge degree of responsibility in their response to having pay cuts , a pension levy , extended hours & reductions in staffing levels arbitrarily forced on them.
Despite the obvious sacrifices made they were & continue to be vilified in the media & by large numbers of the public.
Given the above scenario morale is definitely on the floor & an amount of understandable frustration & bolshieness has crept in , hopefully things are going to be improved gradually as a result of the unwinding of FEMPI legislation & the upcoming employer/union talks.
I do believe that the Government have made a rod for their own back by talking up the economy & by stating that pay restoration is a runner !
Despite the obvious sacrifices made they were & continue to be vilified in the media & by large numbers of the public.
Given the above scenario morale is definitely on the floor & an amount of understandable frustration & bolshieness has crept in , hopefully things are going to be improved gradually as a result of the unwinding of FEMPI legislation & the upcoming employer/union talks.
I do believe that the Government have made a rod for their own back by talking up the economy & by stating that pay restoration is a runner !
Let's face it, the public service needs overhauling. Most Departments, Hospitals, County Councils, City Councils etc work well at what they do. Many of the practices were inherited from a former age and for some reason (probably no reason) continue as part of the ordinary week's work. I have in mind monthly/weekly/quarterly/sixmonthly/yearly surveys that are of no value whatsoever to anybody e.g. how many potholes were temporarily fixed in a particular road. It doesn't matter whether it was ten or a hundred potholes, they needed to be fixed anyway. If they were fixed properly first day there would be no need for "temporarily fixed" scenarios - anyway I think you know what I am getting at.
Vilification by the public and the media will continue no matter how the PS performs. This criticism comes from many ports especially in Ireland where we have opinions on everything and which can change by the day. The unions have responsibility to its members, not the country, not the city council, not the public, not the begrudgers, etc, to reiterate it's the membership, stupid!
It has become fashionable to chastise the unions and when you look around you can see that these guys farting in silk have effectively ignored their paying members and now find themselves fighting rearguard action. If they cock up this time, they know they (the unions in Ireland) are doomed. Lose your membership and you cease to exist. This is a no-brainer.
Now let's look at non union members. I'm not talking about the workers who are in some dynamic employment who do not need unions and can do better without union representation (there are some lucky people in this category and good luck to them). I'm talking about the proles (like myself) who work their brains out overseen by upwardly mobile low management types who do not care whose toes they tread on, on their way to what they call the "top." Some workers do not join unions for fear that they will be seen as agitators, some cannot afford union membership, some are happy to let others represent them and they piggy back on any gains. Union membership was never as important as it is now. From my working experience I have found that management tend to "discover" those who are not union members and when the fan needs feeding these non members are their easy targets.
Another thing I have noticed (at least in the Public Service) is that union activists tend to be promoted faster than ordinary union members and to higher grades . The thinking it is better to have somebody in your tent urinating out that the same person outside urinating in comes to mind.
I don't know if even the unions deserve another chance and there are times when I mentally argue with myself with some union strategy of the past few years. I won't get involved in the smugness of many of the union leadership. But, I reckon the situation is critical (at best) and the next few months will tell a lot.
Gerry Canning
Registered User
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I think we should ban Unions totally .
We can then rely on the beneficence of our Employers.
We can then rely on the stalwart support of our elected Td,s .
Minimum wages are for wimps.
Minimum hours should be retained, each morning workers should stand outside to see are they needed.
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Where would we be without Unions?
Do we want a (Brave-New-World) ? or stay with the flawed one we have ?
We can then rely on the beneficence of our Employers.
We can then rely on the stalwart support of our elected Td,s .
Minimum wages are for wimps.
Minimum hours should be retained, each morning workers should stand outside to see are they needed.
...........................
Where would we be without Unions?
Do we want a (Brave-New-World) ? or stay with the flawed one we have ?
Hi Gerry,
Why not look forwards instead of backwards?
The battles Unions were set up to fight have been won, thankfully. The problem is that they have never moved on an re-defined themselves. We live in a less ideological age, thankfully, and the general push to overthrow the state and replace it with a socialist utopia has less support than in bygone days. The era of employers being landed gentry who own mills to process the cotton grown in their plantations is, thankfully, over. Also over as is the age when the “Wurkers” were uneducated masses living in slums. This, again, is a good thing.
The problem is that Unions don’t seem to realise that and still talk and act as if employers run their dark satanic mills and employees are vulnerable masses, ripe for exploitation. We all know that’s rubbish. We also know that the small proportion of employees who are vulnerable and whose employers do exploit them are not in unions as they can’t afford membership and the unions aren’t really interested in taking on a real fight.
By your logic we should still have suffragettes, instead of the more evolved and relevant equality movement which seeks equal rights for all.
Things change.
The old battle lines have gone.
The war it over.
Unions in their present form need to change beyond all recognition or they will continue to harm the country and remain a parody of what they should be.
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You seem to be ignoring quite a few threads from union members over the years who faced individual issues such as bullying or harassment in their workplaces, where the unions were of no help whatsoever. The unions in those cases were all over collective bargaining, but didn't care about individual workers.
Gerry Canning
Registered User
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Hi Purple,
I ain,t a pinkie but would be adverse to leaving us to the tender clutches of employers.
I agree Unions need to redefine their place in a workplace were they have been very successful in making themselves redundant in that as you say , most wars have been won.
Unions have in too many instances opted for narrow sectional interests, but against that employers were weak.
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The whole idea of having people on Nil Hour type contracts , harps back to former times.
I only see Unions defending people .
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Leo,
You could get threads on many individual cases but I think in the round , Unions have more times been blamed for defending the indefensible rather than the reverse.Just proves you cant win!
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The whole robbing of pensions in Waterford Glass, was Union defended.
I am not overly comfortable with Public Servants being (got at). From my dealings with them I have found them largely helpful and competent .
We can argue that they are too well paid, too cossetted etc, so lets get the rest of us up to that happy position.And by the way God Bless Mr Union for giving us a benchmark (pun-intended)
It appears we want to get Mr Public Servant down to our level!
Onward and upwards I say !
I ain,t a pinkie but would be adverse to leaving us to the tender clutches of employers.
I agree Unions need to redefine their place in a workplace were they have been very successful in making themselves redundant in that as you say , most wars have been won.
Unions have in too many instances opted for narrow sectional interests, but against that employers were weak.
....................................................................................................
The whole idea of having people on Nil Hour type contracts , harps back to former times.
I only see Unions defending people .
.................................................................................................
Leo,
You could get threads on many individual cases but I think in the round , Unions have more times been blamed for defending the indefensible rather than the reverse.Just proves you cant win!
...............................................................................................................
The whole robbing of pensions in Waterford Glass, was Union defended.
I am not overly comfortable with Public Servants being (got at). From my dealings with them I have found them largely helpful and competent .
We can argue that they are too well paid, too cossetted etc, so lets get the rest of us up to that happy position.And by the way God Bless Mr Union for giving us a benchmark (pun-intended)
It appears we want to get Mr Public Servant down to our level!
Onward and upwards I say !
It shouldn’t be a battle or a fight. In a well run business the interests of employees and the employer are complementary. Any body, group or organisation that seeks to create an adversarial or “them and us” atmosphere is hurting everyone.
I agree. They are doing their job in that incidence but I can’t remember the last time they did so.
They would have more credibility if they didn’t defend the indefensible but they do.
The pension fund wasn’t robbed. It was under funded.
The problem is that there is only a finite amount of money so when relatively well paid public sector employees get pay increases then there is less money for those who need it more. It’s about fairness and seeking to have a society where the poorest and most vulnerable are given the help they need to get to a point where they can support themselves. Unions seek to take from the poor to give to the middle.
Hi Deise,
Boy, you've really drank a lot of that Kool Aid recently haven't you?!!
I've worked in the IT industry for a good many years now (too many I might add!) and can only speak for my experience in this industry. In my time I've been a permanent employee but have been contracting for the past 6 or 7 years. As a permanent employee, I've only worked for large organisations, some of which have been unionised. In my experience, wages in larger organisations that have union involvement are at best, average. The perks generally concern working hours, annual leave, pensions and job security, which on the surface, are much better than in the big bad world of the non-unionised workplace. I mentioned "on the surface" for a reason however....I am seeing more and more employees in these types of organisations becoming stale / settled in their ways and over time, losing marketable skills. In other words they become more and more dependent on their current employer. This is where you will find unions operating....in those areas where the employees' skills are not in demand in the market, or at least where those skills would not attract the same pay & conditions.
There are many reasons for this, but generally, it boils down to the something like the following: Take a permanent employee in a "safe" job considering IT certification in their field. The key questions are (1) can they do it? (2) Is it worth it? The answer to Question (1) is Yes in the majority of cases. For Question (2) however the answer is generally No for many in large, unionised organisations...the employer might not fund the training / material costs nor the exam costs and might also not pay the employee anything more upon certification. Coupled with the good job security they perceive, the result is that the employee often doesn't bother. But what happens when the organisation decides to outsource their IT department? What do these employees do then? What good is the union then? Even partial outsourcing can be damaging....say the organisation brings in a consultancy to implement a new system...who ends up doing the most marketable work, the consultants or the staff?
The light bulb went off for me years ago when working in a large bank in Dublin. The CEO was giving a town-hall rallying talk (only a few months before they outsourced a large part of their IT function too!). He said something along the following lines:
You can have no greater job security than ensuring your skills are current and marketable.
Working for a unionised organisation, in my experience anyway, fails on both fronts.
Firefly
I'm lost ! what is Kool Aid & what is a Town Hall rallying talk ?
The largest Unionised groups in the country are the semi states & the public sector followed by probably our financial institutions where wages far exceed those in the generality of the private sector - with the proviso that as the CSO state it is impossible to provide a like for like comparison between sectors but I think it fair to say that allied to better working conditions such as leave , working hours ,pension & job security it appears that Unionised workforces earn more as well - good reasons I would have thought to be unionised !
In recent times the BOI outsourced it's SAP system & a well trained workforce who availed of state of the art training were given the option of TUPE'ing across to the new employer or availing of an extremely lucrative voluntary redundancy package , it will not surprise you that the vast majority of employees availed of such package & given their IT qualifications the people I know were employed rather quickly , one chap who I pal around with received a tax free lump sum of € 180,000 & has since been hired as a consultant by a competing Bank at a multiple of his previous salary albeit on a defined time contract - needless to say he does not feel failed by his Union !
I cannot comment about upskilling in the Public Sector but in the various jobs I have worked in across the private sector ( all unionised ) I was encouraged to do so .
The largest Unionised groups in the country are the semi states & the public sector followed by probably our financial institutions where wages far exceed those in the generality of the private sector - with the proviso that as the CSO state it is impossible to provide a like for like comparison between sectors but I think it fair to say that allied to better working conditions such as leave , working hours ,pension & job security it appears that Unionised workforces earn more as well - good reasons I would have thought to be unionised !
In recent times the BOI outsourced it's SAP system & a well trained workforce who availed of state of the art training were given the option of TUPE'ing across to the new employer or availing of an extremely lucrative voluntary redundancy package , it will not surprise you that the vast majority of employees availed of such package & given their IT qualifications the people I know were employed rather quickly , one chap who I pal around with received a tax free lump sum of € 180,000 & has since been hired as a consultant by a competing Bank at a multiple of his previous salary albeit on a defined time contract - needless to say he does not feel failed by his Union !
I cannot comment about upskilling in the Public Sector but in the various jobs I have worked in across the private sector ( all unionised ) I was encouraged to do so .
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If wages were lower in those generally protected sectors then the rest of us could pay less income tax and there would be more money for services to the public.
With respect, I am not ignoring any threads here. I have looked back at some of the bullying/harrassment threads and most posters appear not to be members of a trades union. I know when I represented staff as union branch officer in the past the likes of alleged bullying were ongoing issues and easy enough to deal with once proper methods were adhered to. Once the "bully" was confronted with the allegation his/her techniques would suddenly stop in most instances. Occasionally, the person at the receiving end would misrepresent the case or withdraw allegations, which did not help any of my representations. But, I can say that 100% of any bullying cases that went the distance the decisions went in favour of the victim. I have no doubt that this would not have happened without union input. There are items that I castigate trades union for, but in bullying situations unions (from where I sit) did everything possible for the victim.
I personally wouldn't like to see a time where there would be no unions, things I fear would very quickly revert back to the bad old days....you only have to look at the widespread abuse of the 'job bridge' scheme ect.. although I do think unions should be doing a lot more for vulnerable and low paid workers instead of those who have very good pay and working conditions as it is!
If you don't know what Kool Aid is, then you must be drinking it! As for town hall rallies...these are generally those mind numbingly boring get-togethers that company CEOs organise to "rally the troops". For some reason that day I just couldn't sleep through it!
Sing it from the rooftops Deise, sing it from the rooftops!!!
I would think that's an exception to the rule. BoI had previously outsourced their IT staff to Perot Systems and many of the staff moved to Perot. You would imagine if their skills were marketable they would have taken the cash and moved on as the guy you mentioned with the SAP skills had done.
I believe you, but being encouraged by an employer is one thing, the actual take up by staff is another.
I think trade unions certainly have their place, such as those against Zero Hours contracts as I've already mentioned. However, in the majority of cases I think they impede employment and reduce services to customers. Looking at the cuts in the Public Sector in the last number of years you can see that the reductions in staff were acheived via voluntary redundancy and early/full retirement. Consideration to services being provided was not considered at all, just the welfare of the employees. My father's friend (an excellent teacher) retired early with a big lumpsum and travels abroad about 6 times a year now. Good for him and more power to his elbow, but sadly, more tax payers' money can't help that old woman wetting herself on trolley on a trolley in A&E. The point I'm trying to make is that "money only comes from other people" as I have in my sig..
Kool Aid - I have never heard of it & I'm sure the majority of posters here are not aware of it's properties or effectiveness & I have no intention of googling it .
I well remember Perot & BOI outsourcing Cabinteely staff to same , you will surely agree that IT was in it's infancy in this country at the time & there was not anything like the demand for IT staff that followed in more recent decades & thus staff had little option but to transfer .
The irony of course is that is was the fact that the major Banks held out during the 1992 strike due to computerisation & then the scabs in BOI when Perot came knocking on the door sought & found the protection of the IBOA !
I really don't understand your concluding para - any Unions job is to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of it's members - your Dad's teacher friend must be thrilled that his Union membership brought him such benefits , I should point out that I'm posting this from A Coruna where I'm enjoying my third holiday of the year with my wife who recently retired from BOI on an excellent redundancy package .
As a BOI early retiree myself I get down on my knees every day & thank God for Union membership
I do realise how lucky both myself & my wife are but we worked hard , showed loyalty , paid into a Union negotiated DB scheme & most importantly were lucky enough to work in a hugely Unionised workforce & are now reaping the benefits !
.I well remember Perot & BOI outsourcing Cabinteely staff to same , you will surely agree that IT was in it's infancy in this country at the time & there was not anything like the demand for IT staff that followed in more recent decades & thus staff had little option but to transfer .
The irony of course is that is was the fact that the major Banks held out during the 1992 strike due to computerisation & then the scabs in BOI when Perot came knocking on the door sought & found the protection of the IBOA !
I really don't understand your concluding para - any Unions job is to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of it's members - your Dad's teacher friend must be thrilled that his Union membership brought him such benefits , I should point out that I'm posting this from A Coruna where I'm enjoying my third holiday of the year with my wife who recently retired from BOI on an excellent redundancy package .
As a BOI early retiree myself I get down on my knees every day & thank God for Union membership
I do realise how lucky both myself & my wife are but we worked hard , showed loyalty , paid into a Union negotiated DB scheme & most importantly were lucky enough to work in a hugely Unionised workforce & are now reaping the benefits !
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