Should we pay more tax to have a better society?

[BlackandBlue]

Evolution rather than revolution I suspect.

The tax office requirements would be simpler and automation probably started decades ago. That's a good head start in anyone's book.

The tax office is a single entity which also helps.
The "HSE" contrary to popular belief is not a molothic entity.
It's a Hodge Podge of different units. Hospitals, Clinics, Contracted Service providers, to mention just a few.

The HSE on the other hand will have a significant volume of records (probably most at different locations) which need to be shared/consulted and is late to the starting position.
During this transition both sets of records would need to be available.
So it's a major undertaking which would take years to properly implement. And this will not come cheap.
That been said I do agree that it would be beneficial to get some sort of a start in developing a common platform.


I was aware of a plan to develop an electronic licence in a related industry to where I work.
The theory was simple.
The problems started when they began to identify who may need to access the licence and how it could be verified.
The minor detail of who was going to fund the work did not help.


Our organisation updates it's main system about every 3 months.
No big bang, but current build is a significant improvement on the very first iteration.
A good description of it would be a Ford Mondeo rather than a Rolls Royce. But it works.

 

[Crandle]

Paying tax for sub standard rubbish ... the Met Éireann "state of the art" weather radar in Shannon that became operational in January has been broken for the last five days. What idiot bought this rubbish ? They should be sacked immediately.

 

[Itchy]

Paying tax for sub standard rubbish ... the Met Éireann "state of the art" weather radar in Shannon that became operational in January has been broken for the last five days. What idiot bought this rubbish ? They should be sacked immediately.

Met Éireann spent money on a piece of equipment which I'm sure they hoped would enhance the service that they can provide. It replaced the equipment originally purchased in 1996, which seems reasonable.

To be honest, given the pejorative language in your post, I thought you had some technical background/knowledge to back it up. And with an 8 post history it wouldn't take long to find.

Over the last few years I have simplified my finances in order to get a mortgage and apply for medical cards and maybe Family Income Supplement (now WFP ?).
My policy is that I will not save long term. I will spend any extra cash on holidays or a car. Any lump sum would be used for home improvements. This will ensure that I am always eligible for a medical card and "SUSI" education grants and FIS/WFP payments.
Is this a good financial strategy in Ireland ?
I was self employed for 12 years and went into a PAYE job for 12 months and have now gone part-time as a PAYE worker.

Scientific instruments that break, can be fixed. Character, that's a different story.

 

[T McGibney]

Met Éireann spent money on a piece of equipment which I'm sure they hoped would enhance the service that they can provide. It replaced the equipment originally purchased in 1996, which seems reasonable.

To be honest, given the pejorative language in your post, I thought you had some technical background/knowledge to back it up. And with an 8 post history it wouldn't take long to find.



Scientific instruments that break, can be fixed. Character, that's a different story.

Ad hominems apart, a weather radar system that continually crashes represents not merely a failure but, for some, also a literal threat to life and limb.

No, I'm not an engineer either, and you're welcome to mine my posts where I'm sure you'll sooner or later find some gotcha or other, but my observation stands regardless.

 

[whitemoney]

Paying more taxes so the government can spend it for the good of society looks great on paper, HOWEVER socialism also looks great on paper, but fails miserably in practice, the human factor of these concepts is what ruins them, ultimately we are the source of our downfall...

 

[joe sod]

Paying more taxes so the government can spend it for the good of society looks great on paper, HOWEVER socialism also looks great on paper, but fails miserably in practice, the human factor of these concepts is what ruins them, ultimately we are the source of our downfall...

Only really works in the Scandinavian countries where they are scrupulously fair and honest. In Ireland where everyone knows each other and insider knowledge and who you know counts for so much, higher taxation and socialism doesn't work, just leads to corruption, look at the hse, all the revenue they get and it goes into a black hole

 

[joe sod]

Looks like Simon Harris doesn't agree, he said today that the average wage earner should not be paying tax at the higher rate and he intends raising the higher tax bracket to 50K. So finally FG are listening to their grass root supporters and not ngos on the government payroll

 

[T McGibney]

Looks like Simon Harris doesn't agree, he said today that the average wage earner should not be paying tax at the higher rate and he intends raising the higher tax bracket to 50K. So finally FG are listening to their grass root supporters and not ngos on the government payroll

9 weeks out from dual elections with his party on the ropes.

The "tax me harder daddy" cause is going to take one hell of a beating on 7 June.

 

[Leper]

Only really works in the Scandinavian countries where they are scrupulously fair and honest. In Ireland where everyone knows each other and insider knowledge and who you know counts for so much, higher taxation and socialism doesn't work, just leads to corruption, look at the hse, all the revenue they get and it goes into a black hole

Definitely, the most truthful post on this thread and well written.

 

[The Horseman]

9 weeks out from dual elections with his party on the ropes.

The "tax me harder daddy" cause is going to take one hell of a beating on 7 June.

Hopefully we will now move more to the centre rather than our move to the left. It would appear the rise in the far right is having an impact on some of the existing parties.

Time and actions will tell.

 

[joe sod]

Yes that's the one great thing about democracy it is self correcting. Most of the media and ngos were calling for more taxation and the government for the last decade has been following this mantra. Now with the looming election the politicians are actually listening to their voters and their has been a rapid change in direction. Alot of the productivity issues from building to health are to do with taxation now being a disincentive to work. It's difficult to get builders onto a muddy site at 7am like it is for medics into a dysfunctional hospital because work is not rewarded like it should be. The welfare system is simply too attractive in comparison to work

 

[BlackandBlue]

There is an election looming.
All parties are starting to make the expected pre election promises.
Once the dust settles and we get the government we deserve for believing their "promises" the fun will start.

There is no magic tree at the end of the garden.

Cold reality will bite.

The pensions will probably be safe as they are well organised in terms of profile and willingness to actually vote.

The rest we will just have to wait and see.

 

[Clamball]

Really interesting topic and some great contributions. I have no problem paying my taxes and getting services that they pay for. But openness and transparency in how our money is spent would really help.

Tax lists are public in Norway
Government documents are publicly available in Sweden.
Both of those would be tough to implement in Ireland and I am sure there are hundreds of other examples.

We can all see the issues with poor financial probity in Ireland, like the children’s hospital, but this happens in other countries too. The sick kids hospital in Edinburgh was unable to open due to ventilation issues. So nothing special about us in Ireland.

And while we see the revenue being efficient, we see the HSE as wasteful, so we can always find good pockets of efficiency in irelands services.

We see some unions strangling reform or change in their sector but others unable to achieve reasonable upgrades for their members.

I find the sectors we speak about most are those we engage with the most, education if we have kids, hse if we have health issues, etc, so it is not surprising they get the most scrunity. And we all have our pet topics.

Education, if I had my way all schools would be handed over to the state by religious bodies, and all would be co-ed. And why does it take decades to reform the curriculum. Why does our school opening days still mimic the harvest season when kids were needed on the farm in July & August. Why are schools not all operating breakfast and after school and holiday clubs because parents are out working. The falsehood that “Mom” is at home working while the kids are being educated and can be available any time the school closes early or has a weather warning or can attend parent teacher meetings at 3 pm is so ridiculous. Parents struggle to work because of our school system, that is bananas.


Health, an electronic patient record that belongs to the patient. All staff treated like pilots. Need to be well rested and trained to perform surgeries etc. I do not want to be treated by a doctor on hour 25 of their shift. All acute hospitals to be run and staffed on a 24 hr basis. If you need an MRI, why do you have to wait until Monday, if you get sick on a Friday. Why is there no physio, dietitian, OT services at weekend, and so on. Patients are as sick at night as they are during the day but the service they get are not the same.

I suppose my question is, if you had free reign to design a new tax system for Ireland, what would you suggest?

 

[T McGibney]

Education, if I had my way all schools would be handed over to the state by religious bodies, and all would be co-ed.

Oddly enough, the main stumbling block against divestment of religious patronage schools has been the trenchant and often bitter opposition of parents almost everywhere it is proposed.

Many are particularly and understandably wary of handling their schools over to boards of management controlled or dominated by politicians, especially after the calamitous mismanagement and mistreatment of the school principal at Gaelscoil Moshíológ in Gorey, in which a prominent local politician was heavily involved.

And why does it take decades to reform the curriculum.

This is weird. The curriculums at all levels have undergone drastic changes throughout the past 15-20 years and systems are in place to maintain this as an ongoing process into the future.

Why does our school opening days still mimic the harvest season when kids were needed on the farm in July & August.

Government policy, surely? What would you prefer, that kids be off In the dark winter months and have to study and prepare for exams in the summer?

Why are schools not all operating breakfast and after school and holiday clubs because parents are out working.

Lack of funding presumably?

The falsehood that “Mom” is at home working while the kids are being educated and can be available any time the school closes early or has a weather warning or can attend parent teacher meetings at 3 pm is so ridiculous.

What alternative do you propose? That schools put life and limb at risk by being open when roads are impassable and when there are public safety warnings against non-essential travel?

 

[Forumuser]

Yes that's the one great thing about democracy it is self correcting. Most of the media and ngos were calling for more taxation and the government for the last decade has been following this mantra. Now with the looming election the politicians are actually listening to their voters and their has been a rapid change in direction. Alot of the productivity issues from building to health are to do with taxation now being a disincentive to work. It's difficult to get builders onto a muddy site at 7am like it is for medics into a dysfunctional hospital because work is not rewarded like it should be. The welfare system is simply too attractive in comparison to work

Bullshit.
It is difficult to get a builder because there are not enough of them around. No lower tax will change that.
It is difficult to get doctors and nurses because the pay is better in Abu Dhabi or Down Under. No lower tax will change that either.
I do not know about any large numbers of doctors, nurses or builders on the dole because it is "more attractive"

 

[Clamball]

Oddly enough, the main stumbling block against divestment of religious patronage schools has been the trenchant and often bitter opposition of parents almost everywhere it is proposed.

Many are particularly and understandably wary of handling their schools over to boards of management controlled or dominated by politicians, especially after the calamitous mismanagement and mistreatment of the school principal at Gaelscoil Moshíológ in Gorey, in which a prominent local politician was heavily involved.

This is weird. The curriculums at all levels have undergone drastic changes throughout the past 15-20 years and systems are in place to maintain this as an ongoing process into the future.

Government policy, surely? What would you prefer, that kids be off In the dark winter months and have to study and prepare for exams in the summer?


Lack of funding presumably?

What alternative do you propose? That schools put life and limb at risk by being open when roads are impassable and when there are public safety warnings against non-essential travel?

All very good points and I suppose one of the issues with reform for a citizen perspective is you only see your perspective. We do need professionals and those who have studied these areas in depth to understand the nuances of the wider national view.

- Removal of religious patronage. I would propose that the community be asked rather than current parents & teachers. Parents want stability, so they will vote in the main to keep the status quo. Past parents or future parents may have a different view. I have read the reports, what happened in Gaelscoil Moshíológ was terrible, last I heard they were appealing to the Supreme Court, but I don’t know if it went ahead.

The junior cert reform ran from 2011-2022 according to this. My kids started secondary when this was being first introduced and with a timeline of over 10 years to implement something that was probably another decade in planning is glacial in terms of speed. My mum had our old junior cert home ec book for some recipes and some pages were word for word identical 35 years later, with some colour photos thrown in.

I do think our dept of education could look at best practice in other countries for opening hours, use of school facilities for childcare, and length of terms. And experiment and try things out. All I know about schools and weather alerts is that our national school sent out a text in the middle of a red weather warning for all parents to collect their kids immediately. This was a last minute red warning and surely everyone would have been safer if the kids stayed indoors at school and 350 odd parents did not take to the streets and roads to collect their kids.

As you can see a lot of my opinions come from my personal experiences which is why I ask others if they had a magic ball what would they do on tax reform to make the country better.

 

[T McGibney]

- Removal of religious patronage. I would propose that the community be asked rather than current parents & teachers.

Define "the community" if it's not to mean a whole generation of parents and prospective parents who raise objections every time a divestment proposal is raised.

The current system works remarkably well, and demand for faith school education is increasing all the time.

It works because local communities, in the form of independent Boards of Management populated and controlled by local people, work very effectively in concert with public servants (school management and staff) and civil servants (regulators) under an effective partnership regime to deliver an education system that is second to none.

If you remove that independence and replace that community/state co-operation with the most obvious alternative of political power brokers, their cronies and wannabes working with public and civil servants, don't be surprised when accountability diminishes and bad things start to happen as they did in Gorey.

All I know about schools and weather alerts is that our national school sent out a text in the middle of a red weather warning for all parents to collect their kids immediately. This was a last minute red warning and surely everyone would have been safer if the kids stayed indoors at school and 350 odd parents did not take to the streets and roads to collect their kids.

Would you have preferred if the school had held on to all those children overnight in the middle of a weather emergency without any appropriate food, accommodation, medical or other facilities in place?

Have you not considered that school teachers and staff would invariably have caring commitments in that scenario in respect of their own children and perhaps others, that would make it impossible for them to facilitate staying interminably in the school until the weather emergency was over?

That seems a bizarre issue on which to predicate root and branch changes to our system of school operations and management, let alone of the tax system.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Am I alone? Can we rehabilitate taxation as a means towards creating a better society?

Or am I hopelessly naive?

It’s not just about taxation. It is also about administrative efficiency.

Perhaps local government and performance of local authorities needs to be looked at.

Over the years LAs have lost many services they formerly provided due to lack of finance – caused by their inability to collect rents and rates.

They were also incapable of collecting LPT, which had to be passed to Revenue.

A recent experience proved to me that they are equally incompetent in the administration of grants – though maybe that was just my experience.

 

[Purple]

It’s not just about taxation. It is also about administrative efficiency.

Perhaps local government and performance of local authorities needs to be looked at.

Over the years LAs have lost many services they formerly provided due to lack of finance – caused by their inability to collect rents and rates.

They were also incapable of collecting LPT, which had to be passed to Revenue.

A recent experience proved to me that they are equally incompetent in the administration of grants – though maybe that was just my experience.

I pay over half my total income in taxes. I then pay VAT when I buy stuff with what's left. I've no big problem with the amount of tax I pay though I'd rather see lower taxes on work and higher taxes on wealth. My problem is with how much of our taxes are wasted by State bodies and agencies. This is particularly the case in our extremely well funded health service but applies pretty much across the board. I have no expectation that increasing taxes would result in any material improvement in services or in society.

The discussion should be "Should the State and its employees waste less of our taxes in order to have a better society". The answer to that is an emphatic yes. But please don't just blame the government and the politicians. The problem is thousands of little problems, knitted into the structures of the Civil and Public Sectors and State funded service providers (including the HSE and everyone paid by it). Those people, to a lesser or greater extent, are to blame and are responsible.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I think it’s about finding out particulars.

Sometimes it’s about poorly drafted or out-of-date legislation.

Sometimes it’s about out-of-date practices or notions of how things should be done.

Take the social housing list for instance.

How does the Minister know how many are on the list, the nature of the applicant(s), the future social housing requirement.

Well, each LA maintains its own list in its own way. Data capture, data adequacy and maintenance of records is not necessarily consistent across LAs.

We know that the same people may apply to different LAs.

I reckon that the Department should maintain the list (database) and set rules for the data it wishes to capture, including key identifiers. Housing applications should be made directly to the Dept. It may entail more departmental staffing, less LA staffing, but overall, less staffing.

Data interrogation would be simpler and more informative to the Minister and duplicates eliminated. If the Minister required more information from time to time, it would be easier to adjust one database rather than several disparate databases.