Proposed abortion Referendum

A number of politicians have declared their position to repeal the 8th but are opposed to the right to an abortion up to 12 weeks in unlimited circumstances.

I assume this is where the debate will be fought. I no
 
cremeegg said:
He is employed as a columnist so it is reasonable for him to select his facts and present them in the best light to forward his opinions. He is not a reporter, I think an accusation of bias misses the point. He accurately portrays his own views, that's what they pay him for.
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He presents arguments which he backs up with the selective use of facts which in effect misrepresent the truth.
 
Relevant judgement today on the rights of the unborn:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...h-amendment-supreme-court-rules-36679324.html

From the article it appears to remove a potential stumbling block for the proposed referendum, but I am drawn to this line in particular:

"The findings were appealed by the State, which argued the only right the unborn has is the right to be born. Other constitutional rights only kick in when a child is born, lawyers for the State argued."

Would this not mean that an unborn cannot be aborted as it has the right to be born???
 
Firefly said:
Relevant judgement today on the rights of the unborn:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...h-amendment-supreme-court-rules-36679324.html

From the article it appears to remove a potential stumbling block for the proposed referendum, but I am drawn to this line in particular:

"The findings were appealed by the State, which argued the only right the unborn has is the right to be born. Other constitutional rights only kick in when a child is born, lawyers for the State argued."

Would this not mean that an unborn cannot be aborted as it has the right to be born???
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There is no change in law. That was always the case. Just don't forget it includes 'due regard to the equal right to life of the mother' so it's not as simple as saying an unborn can't be aborted.
 
cremeegg said:
I believe no woman should have to carry any child against her will.

I also believe that to destroy an unborn child is horrendous.

If anyone can reconcile those two beliefs, I will have a coherent position on abortion.
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The time is approaching when I will have to decide, not what I think about abortion, but which box to tick in the referendum on repealing the 8th amendment to the constitution.

I came into the discussion realising the impossibility of legislating for abortion in the case of rape and incest only. Which seems to be a "journey" many politicians seem to have taken, most recently Simon Coveney. While i fully accept that, it does not address the horror of destroying an unborn child.

As for the debate so far, it has not been as aggressive as might have been expected.

The posters showing a foetus and the slogan "One of us" have been the stand out for me so far.

I am certainly still undecided.
 
cremeegg said:
I believe no woman should have to carry any child against her will.

I also believe that to destroy an unborn child is horrendous.

If anyone can reconcile those two beliefs, I will have a coherent position on abortion.
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The two are irreconcilable. There are only two coherent positions on abortion, as you have identified already. Neither is on offer in the current referendum anyway, so you are faced with having to vote on the choices that are actually available. Although abortion is often discussed in terms of edge cases, the practice in the event of repeal is likely to be similar to our nearest neighbour, where over 98% of abortions are not connected to issues of maternal or fetal physical health. You will have to take a stance, one way or another.
 
In everything relating to the referendum:-
Who will gain the most?
Who will lose the most?
Who is going to pay the most?

Just some questions.
 
Leper said:
Who will gain the most? - people looking for sex without consequences + private abortion providers
Who will lose the most? - aborted babies
Who is going to pay the most? - tax payers required to fund free abortions
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i have to go with lepers post at the start of this thread ,speaking as a male i believe that all males should remain neutral ,should not vote should not canvass should not be involved in any way ,this is a female issue ,it is the female who will get pregnant and who will have to live for the rest of their lives with whatever decision they judge to be correct at that time ,
ladies do you want men to decide/dictate what you do with your body?
gentle men do not approach my door from either side on this issue you will not be entertained
 
johnwilliams said:
i have to go with lepers post at the start of this thread ,speaking as a male i believe that all males should remain neutral ,should not vote should not canvass should not be involved in any way ,this is a female issue ,it is the female who will get pregnant and who will have to live for the rest of their lives with whatever decision they judge to be correct at that time ,
ladies do you want men to decide/dictate what you do with your body?
gentle men do not approach my door from either side on this issue you will not be entertained
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Are there no consequences for men in becoming... or not becoming fathers?
It is not just the responsibility of the mother to take care of the baby.
That attitude towards fatherhood is not a healthy one... seems to encourage the idea that men have no responsibilities towards children they father.

This is not a female issue. This is a human issue.
Even though slavery only applied to black people, pre civil war white americans became abolitionists because they could extend their sense of who is a human entitled to legal protection to encompass people of a different skin colour.
So it is entirely legitimate for males to take a position on this one.

Should we exclude women past child bearing age also from taking a position? Should men and such women even be allowed to vote by your logic?

And I dont think some women want anyone... of either gender, dictating to them!
 
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I saw some posters on lamp-posts stating "Stop Policing My Body" - So men should not have a vote in this referendum. Women should have the major say is their own body.
 
Leper said:
I saw some posters on lamp-posts stating "Stop Policing My Body" - So men should not have a vote in this referendum. Women should have the major say is their own body.
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It's not an argument I find much merit in, it could just as easily be used to argue
Stop Policing My Body - "I should be able to take whatever drinks and drugs I want and drive."

This idea that only women should have a say in this matter is profoundly undemocratic, not to mention ludicrous... there are many women who cannot have children, for various biological reasons - perhaps the majority.
Do we subject all possible voters to a fertility and gender test?

There are many political issues and referendums where there is disparate impact on citizens based on the result.
Should we prevent over 80s from voting in referenda in general, because they may not have to live with the consequences for very long?
 
odyssey06 said:
It's not an argument I find much merit in, it could just as easily be used to argue
Stop Policing My Body - "I should be able to take whatever drinks and drugs I want and drive."

This idea that only women should have a say in this matter is profoundly undemocratic, not to mention ludicrous... there are many women who cannot have children, for various biological reasons - perhaps the majority.
Do we subject all possible voters to a fertility and gender test?

There are many political issues and referendums where there is disparate impact on citizens based on the result.
Should we prevent over 80s from voting in referenda in general, because they may not have to live with the consequences for very long?
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1. Newflash! it's being used by supporters of the Yes campaign and has nothing to do with drinks and drugs when one drives.
2. Undemocratic, no, practical yes. No man ever became pregnant . No man ever had an abortion
3. The over 80's women while they deserve their say from what happened in dear ol' Ireland's past will never need to have an abortion.

Men participating the referendum are like men running in Women's Marathon's looking stupid in their grass skirts and pound shop wigs where women want their say on women's issues. For once, Let's trust our women to make the right decision for what affects them.
 
RTE news should just come out with an editorial in favour of voting Yes, if tonight's 9 o clock news is anything to go on.
 
I didn't really want to post on this thread as for me it's very much a private matter but Leper I don't think it is at all right to say that men should have no say in this referendum. Do you think the marriage referendum should have been restricted to allow only gay people vote? This is our constitution - all of ours. We all have a say in it.
 
Leper said:
I saw some posters on lamp-posts stating "Stop Policing My Body" - So men should not have a vote in this referendum. Women should have the major say is their own body.
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I'm very much on the fence regarding the referendum. Historically, I would have been against abortion but over the past few weeks I can really see both sides. The fact that I have a daughter of my own probably weighs too. However, in relation to the "Stop Policing My Body" argument I cannot help think about the unborn baby's body and who really gets to decide it's ok to end this.
 
johnwilliams said:
i have to go with lepers post at the start of this thread ,speaking as a male i believe that all males should remain neutral ,should not vote should not canvass should not be involved in any way ,this is a female issue ,it is the female who will get pregnant and who will have to live for the rest of their lives with whatever decision they judge to be correct at that time ,
ladies do you want men to decide/dictate what you do with your body?
gentle men do not approach my door from either side on this issue you will not be entertained
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I presume you want to restrict this to women who pass a fertility test as any women who can't get pregnant can't have an abortion and so should have no say, right?
johnwilliams said:
this is a female issue ,it is the female who will get pregnant and who will have to live for the rest of their lives with whatever decision they judge to be correct at that time
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I take is then that you are in favour of an addendum to the referendum removing any and all responsibility of fathers to look after or provide for their children? I don't know if you are a parent but a woman choosing not to have an abortion has a pretty major impact on the father of that child. Ask any father who has lost a child; you may be surprised to find that can also have a major impact on them.

I'll probably be voting yes but this is about ending the life of a child in the womb.
It is not a feminist issue.
It is not a religious issue.
It is not a progressive v regressive issue.
It is legislating for something which is weighty and tragic and traumatic and will have a major impact on every women making that decision and many of the men who are the fathers of those unborn children.

A abortion is a horrible thing but sometimes is it the least worst option. Presenting it as merely a medical procedure is wrong and suggesting that any women's life is being put as risk because of what's currently in place is also wrong. Denying the reality that Irish women have abortions at the moment, often without support and always in a different country, is also wrong.
 
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