Proposed abortion Referendum

[cremeegg]

Sorry the full quote is


"Absolutely rape is a dreadful and heinous crime and that the consequences for women who become pregnant as a result of that is an extremely difficult situation. The Government are reflecting on that at the moment and will continue to do so"

 

[cremeegg]

Unlike you I do know my own opinion and that is that any right to life should not be predicated on how conception transpired.
Few would disagree with that.

I am sure no one would disagree with that.

However to my mind that creates a further difficulty.

Do you think a woman should have to carry a child when she does not want to.

Do you think the law should force her to give birth against her will.

I absolutely agree with you when you say, "any right to life should not be predicated on how conception transpired" but for me that is not the whole story.

 

[Bronte]

I'm more totally pro choice than I ever was. With time limits.

It doesn't matter if it's rape, fatel foetal abnormalities (FFA), incest, health of a women or choice.

Most Irish people would now vote for it for rape and FFA. They have a bigger issue with choice.

This issue is not going away. The Irish people are total and utter hypocritics on this when they voted in a referendum to allow women to travel for abortions.

And I too think that an abortion is not an easy choice or something that shouldn't be carefully considered.

 

[cremeegg]

Bronte, you say you are pro-choice when it comes to fatal foetal abnormality. This is something that can be confirmed with at least reasonable certainty by a doctor.

However you also say you are pro-choice in cases of rape. In practice how would would it be confirmed that a pregnancy was the result of rape. Would you accept the claim of the pregnant woman? If so that would allow abortion on demand for people willing to lie about their situation.

That would not be an issue if you are pro-choice in all circumstances. However I think that the idea of allowing abortion in the case of rape is so surrounded with practical difficulties that it could never be made to work.

 

[delgirl]

I'm more totally pro choice than I ever was. With time limits.

It doesn't matter if it's rape, fatel foetal abnormalities (FFA), incest, health of a women or choice.

Most Irish people would now vote for it for rape and FFA. They have a bigger issue with choice.

This issue is not going away. The Irish people are total and utter hypocritics on this when they voted in a referendum to allow women to travel for abortions.

And I too think that an abortion is not an easy choice or something that shouldn't be carefully considered.

+ 1

On last night's [broken link removed] programme with Ger Colleran, a woman gave a heart-rending account of how at her 12 week scan her foetus was diagnosed with anancephaly, a fatal abnormality (it starts at around 10.50 mins). She had to go to a private clinic in Brimingham to have the termination as she couldn't have it here.

She felt she was treated like a criminal, but made the choice as she couldn't face carrying a foetus she knew had no chance of survival to full term.

She made the right choice for her circumstances, if someone else chooses to carry a foetus with fatal abnormalities to full term, then that's their decision and it should be respected.

Kudos to Ruth Bowie for speaking out on what must have been a horrendous blow compounded by having to go abroad away from her family and support to seek help.

 

[Bronte]

However you also say you are pro-choice in cases of rape. In practice how would would it be confirmed that a pregnancy was the result of rape. Would you accept the claim of the pregnant woman? If so that would allow abortion on demand for people willing to lie about their situation.

.

Very simple question and easily answered, for me. If she says she was raped, she was raped. Even you asking the question, you ought to think about that. And I mean that not in a negative way about you, as I know you are genuine. It's time to stop this attitute of all women are lying or will lie. Just trust us to know what is best.

I no longer feel the need to debate nonsenses on is she raped or not, is it incest or not, is it a hard case, does she deserve it, is she mentally ill, is she suicidal, or even worse, measuring how far along a woman may be on the battle of losing her life in percentage terms.

But as I said I'm so totally for choice in abortion, with term limits, except for FFA or risk to life or health.

I have debated this issue on here many years ago. But for sure since Savita Halappanavaar, I have never been more convinced of a woman's right to choose.

There is no argument that will ever now change my mind. It's been going on too long and I want the 8th to be repelled and it will happen, I believe in my lifetime. The young people today, they don't think like us dinasours.

Women in conjunction with their doctors should be allowed to make their medical choices. And the constitution is no place to regulate women's bodies.

 

[Bronte]

She felt she was treated like a criminal, but made the choice as she couldn't face carrying a foetus she knew had no chance of survival to full term.

.

There are too many stories like this, I listed to the pod casts of Joe Duffy last year from women who felt like this, made to act like criminals sneaking off to England for abortions that they couldn't speak about to anyone.

 

[Purple]

And the constitution is no place to regulate women's bodies.

The constitution doesn’t regulate a woman’s body, it takes a position on the right to life of unborn children within a woman. We have laws to protect the weak from the strong. There is no situation where that gulf is greater.
I am an atheist so this is not a religious issue for me. This is about the lesser of two evils. Which is worse; forcing a woman to carry a child inside her that she doesn’t want or killing that child before it’s born. It is a horrendous scenario in which there are no good outcomes. I have thought about it for many years and I’m no closer to a firm position now what I was a decade ago.

 

[michaelm]

Very simple question and easily answered, for me. If she says she was raped, she was raped.

Would a wife accusing her husband of rape make it less simple?

But for sure since Savita Halappanavaar, I have never been more convinced of a woman's right to choose.

Would you not concede that that tragedy resulted from sepsis mismanagement rather than lack of access to abortion.

 

[Bronte]

I am an atheist so this is not a religious issue for me.

I have thought about it for many years and I’m no closer to a firm position now what I was a decade ago.

Neither for me is it a religious issue.

Not being glib Purple, and you know I'm not, but it really doesn't matter for you if you have a position on it, because you'll never have to make that decision. And I'm in no way meaning to open a man versus women discussion. I fully support everybody voting however. I will now also probably never have to make a decision on an abortion. But my children and grandchildren might. And if they do, I don't want them to be shuffled off to England like thieves in the night.

I don't consider anything in the first trimester to be an issue whatsoever. And I do not agree with the UK time limits.

 

[Bronte]

Would a wife accusing her husband of rape make it less simple?Would you not concede that that tragedy resulted from sepsis mismanagement rather than lack of access to abortion.

As you would know, it's not so long since rape within marriage didn't exist. It makes no difference what the marital relationship. I guess what you're trying to say is does the husband have a choice. I would hope so, but if you face reality, hope is all a man has, as he has no right in this. I'm not saying that, it's a fact. No husband is able to prevent his wife from travelling to the UK, and do you really really want to get into that debate. We can go around in circles on the man's rights in this. I would hope that if a woman decides for her, she needs an abortion, that her partner would support her, in her choice. For myself, I would hope that I would discuss it with my husband and we would both come to a decision that was right for us. What I cannot do is speak for other women. And for myself, I can as I said hope that I would consider my husband's opinion.

My own current abortion debate stance is this, I'm dealing with realities, not hypotheticals or hystronics.

I am fully convinced in my mind that Astbury was more concerned with the foetus and her own skin than giving Savita the abortion she needed. I have read and analysed nearly as much as has been written, as much as I can. As it happens, I would know that hospital and have relations who have given birth there.

And Praveen Hallapanaver is one of the bravest men. He took on the whole health systema and the state and we were found very badly wanting in human empathy. And the racial overturns that were related to me were unedifying as were the constant references to money.

And I know from before Michaelm that you and I will never agree. And that's fine with me. But it's not fine with me that 150,000 Irish women have had abortions and that they have to hide it.

 

[michaelm]

I don't consider anything in the first trimester to be an issue whatsoever.

Despite the fact the the unborn child is fully formed by the end of the first trimester.

I'm dealing with realities, not hypotheticals or hystronics.

Except perhaps the reality that abortion takes the life of an unborn child. Some 4000 unborn Irish children, 200,000 British and tens of millions worldwide meet this reality every year.

And Praveen Hallapanaver is one of the bravest men. He took on the whole health systema and the state and we were found very badly wanting in human empathy.

We can agree that the Hallapanaver family were badly let down by the Irish health system.

 

[cremeegg]

That (#26) is a very good post Bronte and I think your position is logical.

It is likely that Lab and FG will go into the next election promising a referendum to permit abortion in the case of FFA or rape.

Rape is a serious criminal offence. If a woman has an abortion, permitted because of rape, the Gardai will obviously have to bring charges of rape against the father.

Your position Bronte resolves this issue by permitting abortion for choice, but that is unlikely to be proposed in a referendum

 

[dereko1969]

The constitution doesn’t regulate a woman’s body, it takes a position on the right to life of unborn children within a woman. We have laws to protect the weak from the strong. There is no situation where that gulf is greater.
I am an atheist so this is not a religious issue for me. This is about the lesser of two evils. Which is worse; forcing a woman to carry a child inside her that she doesn’t want or killing that child before it’s born. It is a horrendous scenario in which there are no good outcomes. I have thought about it for many years and I’m no closer to a firm position now what I was a decade ago.

Where else is the zygote/foetus going to be? That's just semantics.

That (#26) is a very good post Bronte and I think your position is logical.

It is likely that Lab and FG will go into the next election promising a referendum to permit abortion in the case of FFA or rape.

Rape is a serious criminal offence. If a woman has an abortion, permitted because of rape, the Gardai will obviously have to bring charges of rape against the father.

Your position Bronte resolves this issue by permitting abortion for choice, but that is unlikely to be proposed in a referendum

Don't you mean rapist?

I would be in favour of repeal of the 8th and abortion on demand here until 20 weeks after conception.

I think we'll have another fudge, with the 8th being repealed but a similar flawed requirement for women to jump through myriad hoops to get the operation done within a reasonable time period.

 

[Leper]

. . . and while Ireland debates about a possible future debate . . .Cora from Corofin . . . does not have the time to wait . . .UK, Sweden or wherever beckons . . .

 

[cremeegg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremeegg View Post
That (#26) is a very good post Bronte and I think your position is logical.

It is likely that Lab and FG will go into the next election promising a referendum to permit abortion in the case of FFA or rape.

Rape is a serious criminal offence. If a woman has an abortion, permitted because of rape, the Gardai will obviously have to bring charges of rape against the father.

Your position Bronte resolves this issue by permitting abortion for choice, but that is unlikely to be proposed in a referendum

Don't you mean rapist?

Not unless a court decides that it was rape. That is exactly the point!

 

[S.L.F]

If she says she was raped, she was raped. Even you asking the question, you ought to think about that.

She said she was raped....so was she raped?

She denied she was a rapist....did she lie???

And I mean that not in a negative way about you, as I know you are genuine. It's time to stop this attitute of all women are lying or will lie. Just trust us to know what is best.

Sorry but humans lie to get out of trouble and a false accusation of rape is a good way for a woman to preserve her reputation even six weeks after the event after she did something really stupid.....or just for a laugh.

I no longer feel the need to debate nonsenses on is she raped or not, is it incest or not, is it a hard case, does she deserve it, is she mentally ill, is she suicidal, or even worse, measuring how far along a woman may be on the battle of losing her life in percentage terms.

What are the signs of life? To me it is a heartbeat.

Does a human being with a heartbeat not get a voice?

But as I said I'm so totally for choice in abortion, with term limits, except for FFA or risk to life or health.

I have debated this issue on here many years ago. But for sure since Savita Halappanavaar, I have never been more convinced of a woman's right to choose.

We don't want another bad law here thanks due to one case.

There is no argument that will ever now change my mind. It's been going on too long and I want the 8th to be repelled and it will happen, I believe in my lifetime. The young people today, they don't think like us dinasours.

The voices of the young don't think much if they've been aborted.

Women in conjunction with their doctors should be allowed to make their medical choices. And the constitution is no place to regulate women's bodies.

Do you think a man should have a say in this?

According to Irish law men have a duty to provide maintenance for their children (married or not even if they don't even get access to the children), would you as someone who clearly believes in equality say that a father should have a say in this?

Or if she decides she wants to keep the child and he clearly doesn't he should have the right to walk away completely without any obligations at all?

 

[Gerry Canning]

Having lived through the previous venomous incarnations of Abortion Referenda, that have ended in a fudge of no mans land ,I am inclined to hold a view based on a couple of obvious facts..
1. We have abortion via Uk.
2. We have abortion via morning after XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

What we don,t seem to have is a kindness towards people, and fall into philosophical type discussions..

Reality tells me we have to give women an informed choice.
I would support any pregnant/raped woman who chooses to take pregnancy full term.
I would support her if she didn,t go full term.

I would understand any woman who knowing her child would die @birth, either continuing or not continuing with pregnancy.


It is all ,so so difficult and I now am of the opinion that we get off the fence and amend things.
When all is said it ends up as a womans choice , hopefully fully supported by us.
Surely that would be preferable to the present fudge ?

 

[Purple]

When all is said it ends up as a womans choice , hopefully fully supported by us.

I know it's a minor issue in the scheme of things and I know there are no good outcomes, just less bad ones, but if the father wants to keep the baby is it right that he has no voice? If he doesn't want to keep it is it right that he has no voice? Pregnancy lasts 9 months. Parenthood is for life. and yet he has no say in whether be becomes a parent of not.
The guilt and mental health issues arising from all outcomes from an unwanted pregnancy can also last a lifetime.

 

[thedaddyman]

I know it's a minor issue in the scheme of things and I know there are no good outcomes, just less bad ones, but if the father wants to keep the baby is it right that he has no voice? If he doesn't want to keep it is it right that he has no voice? Pregnancy lasts 9 months. Parenthood is for life. and yet he has no say in whether be becomes a parent of not.
The guilt and mental health issues arising from all outcomes from an unwanted pregnancy can also last a lifetime.

There was an article in last weeks Irish Examiner about counseling and one of the things that was mentioned is that they are seeing a rise in men coming for counseling after an abortion. It's an issue that is often overlooked sad to say.