Proposed abortion Referendum

Sunny said:
And you think it is a good idea for people to 'vent' on something like abortion or peoples views on abortion?
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Allowing people to vent or otherwise is far preferable to locking down a topic for no good reason.

Sunny said:
Fair enough, if people are really sad enough to want to discuss such a topic on a website called Askaboutmoney so they can once again spout their views one way or another
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Why single out this topic? Why is it less deserving of discussion that coughs & sneezes, marriage equality, TUSLA surveys or anything else in LOS or STB? The whole purpose of those forums is as a place to host the inevitable threads that don't quite fit elsewhere.
 
Sunny said:
People are not going to change their minds.
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I've moved from a conflicted position slightly more on one side than the other to an equally conflicted view slightly more on the other side to the one I started on. I think I'm in the majority in being conflicted on the issue. If I was a politician I would find it very hard to express a clear view or take a hard stance. That's why I admire what Michaél Martin did; he expressed a clear but moderate view on the subject. I don't understand how anyone can occupy the extremes on this issue as there are so many conflicting rights and so much human suffering, no matter what the outcome is.
 
Ireland shouldn't sleepwalk into an abortion-on-demand regime. When pro-repeal advocates call for a calm and respectable debate what they usually mean is let's not talk about the humanity of the unborn or the terrible fate that awaits those to be aborted. I'm strongly in favour of retaining Ireland's two-patient approach. I'm sorry (genuinely) if that upsets anyone.
 
Leo said:
Allowing people to vent or otherwise is far preferable to locking down a topic for no good reason.



Why single out this topic? Why is it less deserving of discussion that coughs & sneezes, marriage equality, TUSLA surveys or anything else in LOS or STB? The whole purpose of those forums is as a place to host the inevitable threads that don't quite fit elsewhere.
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Abortions is not the same as discussing sneezes or coughs. People might not want to hurt people or be personal in what they write but that is what will happen on both sides. It happened the last time this was discussed on this site. There are plenty of other places where this can be discussed so why here? What will happen is that it will start off talking about the legislation. Someone will say abortion is evil and murder. Someone else will come and talk about deformed babies and children of rape/incest. Someone else will say they should allow it in some cases. Someone else will say it should never be allowed. And on and on and on it will go............If people want to campaign on one side of the other, join up. If people want to research the topic, there are loads of very informative places they can go. If people want to discuss it, there are hundreds of places to go. Search twitter and off you go. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think the contributors to LOS in Askaboutmoney including myself are going to bring any new great insights on the topic so it is just an excuse for people to rant and use phrases like 'abortion on demand' and 'right to choose' which will eventually happen. The Nazi's or Hitler will probably appear at around page 7...............Anyway as I say, I am probably in the minority so have fun folks.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Actually page 4:rolleyes:
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Fair enough but Goodwins law only applies when comparisons to Hitler are made. Saying that Hitler will appear in page 7 of an internet debate is not Goodwins law. Simply pointing out that it will end up getting that ridiculous.
 
Sunny said:
Maybe I am wrong but I don't think the contributors to LOS in Askaboutmoney including myself are going to bring any new great insights on the topic so it is just an excuse for people to rant and use phrases like 'abortion on demand' and 'right to choose' which will eventually happen.
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So far so good; A reasoned and moderate post from someone who holds strong views on one side of the debate below.

michaelm said:
Ireland shouldn't sleepwalk into an abortion-on-demand regime. When pro-repeal advocates call for a calm and respectable debate what they usually mean is let's not talk about the humanity of the unborn or the terrible fate that awaits those to be aborted. I'm strongly in favour of retaining Ireland's two-patient approach. I'm sorry (genuinely) if that upsets anyone.
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Sunny said:
Maybe I am wrong but I don't think the contributors to LOS in Askaboutmoney including myself are going to bring any new great insights on the topic so it is just an excuse for people to rant
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And I suppose that is the core of my view. I certainly don't expect any discussion here to hold any grand merit or serve to educate or change people's minds on the topics, but that alone isn't a good enough reason to ban the topic. If we were to delete all such threads, LOS or STB simply wouldn't exist, and some other forums might be a lot quieter too.

So long as posters are mature and abide by the posting guidelines, they're free to rant as they see fit. If a post crosses the line, we'll remove it, if the thread becomes onerous to moderate, we'll remove it altogether.
 
Probably the thread will be of most interest in discussion of\reaction to the referendum campaign itself, rather than a straight debate between the opposing views in the campaigns e.g. what is the impact on the campaign and on FF of Michael Martin's decision, rather than Michael Martin's decision is wrong because of X or right because of Y.
 
Leo said:
I certainly don't expect any discussion here to hold any grand merit or serve to educate or change people's minds on the topics,.
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A little condescending there Leo.

I certainly would claim to have highlighted the difficulties around legislating for abortion in the case of rape on this thread some time ago.

I believe that the difficulties I outlined were substantially those that made the Oireachtas committee decide not to go down that route.

I do not believe these difficulties were understood by any prominent commentators in the media at the time.
 
cremeegg said:
A little condescending there Leo.
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Apologies, it wasn't intended as such. I didn't mean to assert that there wouldn't be insightful input, just that a thread here is likely to have little impact on the debate as a whole, or the referendum result.
 
The IT has had Fintan O Toole and Breda O Brien out on either side of the debate over the last few days.

There is a basic mismatch there in that FOT is one of the most subtle thinkers in the Irish media and both willing and able to approach any question from the ground up.

Breda is a passionate school teacher whose ideas are just projections of values absorbed in childhood. That doesn't make her ideas wrong.

The issue of what repealing the 8th amendment says about our attitudes to disability will I think become central to the discussion.
 
cremeegg said:
There is a basic mismatch there in that FOT is one of the most subtle thinkers in the Irish media and both willing and able to approach any question from the ground up.
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I disagree. While he's certainly a very smart man he's very selective in his use of the facts and frequently misrepresents the truth in order to further a strongly liberal and left wing agenda. In other words he's very biased and plucks out facts which he used out of context in an attempt to disguise that bias.
 
cremeegg said:
There is a basic mismatch there in that FOT is one of the most subtle thinkers in the Irish media and both willing and able to approach any question from the ground up.
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I didn't see that opinion piece. Did FOT acknowledge the humanity of the unborn child and that abortion stops a beating heart?
 
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michaelm said:
I didn't see that opinion piece. Did FOT acknowledge the humanity of the unborn child and that abortion stops a beating heart?
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I didn't see it either but I'd put money on the answer to your question being "no".
 
Purple said:
I disagree. While he's certainly a very smart man he's very selective in his use of the facts and frequently misrepresents the truth in order to further a strongly liberal and left wing agenda. In other words he's very biased and plucks out facts which he used out of context in an attempt to disguise that bias.
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He is employed as a columnist so it is reasonable for him to select his facts and present them in the best light to forward his opinions. He is not a reporter, I think an accusation of bias misses the point. He accurately portrays his own views, that's what they pay him for.

My point is that he is a much better thinker than Breda O Brien, who is employed in the same capacity by the IT representing an opposing perspective.

Between them they have, in my opinion, covered the background to the effect abortion availability has on the birth of children with Down Syndrome, very well.
 
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