Proposed abortion Referendum

[Purple]

I'd love to know if people really think that way - where's the research?

Once again, all the responsibility is being put on the women. Men should take more responsibility for their actions, after all it takes 2 to tango.

Absolutely, I agree 100%.
What's your opinion on the rights of the potential father of the unborn child/thing in the woman?
If the woman chooses to have an abortion he doesn't get to be a father. He has no say in the matter.
If the woman chooses not to have an abortion then he becomes a father, with all the associated responsibilities for the rest of his life, whether he likes it or not.

Do you think that's right?

 

[odyssey06]

I'd love to know if people really think that way - where's the research?
Once again, all the responsibility is being put on the women. Men should take more responsibility for their actions, after all it takes 2 to tango.

Why do you need research, just ask yourself, in a world where there was no abortion whatsoever, would people have more or less incentive to use condoms and the pill?

I'm at a loss as to how you read into that specific comment or my earlier ones on this thread that all the responsibility should be put on to women.

 

[Purple]

in a world where there was no abortion whatsoever, would people have more or less incentive to use condoms and the pill?

Probably not; it is human nature not to expect the worst.

 

[odyssey06]

Probably not; it is human nature not to expect the worst.

That might be true for some but not all or we wouldn't have a million people here with private health insurance as the 'worst' doesn't come much worse than the HSE

 

[Andarma]

I'm at a loss as to how you read into that specific comment or my earlier ones on this thread that all the responsibility should be put on to women.

My comment was in response to yours about taking a pill every day. You never mentioned condoms or any other form of contraception.

 

[Andarma]

Absolutely, I agree 100%.
What's your opinion on the rights of the potential father of the unborn child/thing in the woman?
If the woman chooses to have an abortion he doesn't get to be a father. He has no say in the matter.
If the woman chooses not to have an abortion then he becomes a father, with all the associated responsibilities for the rest of his life, whether he likes it or not.

Do you think that's right?

It's complicated and not black and white. Again, there are potentially many different scenarios at play. Ultimately though, it is the woman who has to endure pregnancy and childbirth.

 

[odyssey06]

My comment was in response to yours about taking a pill every day. You never mentioned condoms or any other form of contraception.

Nothing in my post indicates that other forms of contraception were excluded, it was clearly not written as an exhaustive list of the forms available, but I was drawing an explicit comparison between the delivery mechanism of one form of contraception and one form of abortion.

 

[Purple]

Ultimately though, it is the woman who has to endure pregnancy and childbirth.

It is indeed, and that is a major factor for the second and third trimester but both parties will then be parents for the rest of their lives. Parenthood has a much bigger impact on your life than pregnancy.

 

[Andarma]

It is indeed, and that is a major factor for the second and third trimester but both parties will then be parents for the rest of their lives. Parenthood has a much bigger impact on your life than pregnancy.

True, but imagine being pregnant against your will?

 

[Firefly]

Ultimately though, it is the woman who has to endure pregnancy and childbirth.

That's true. But with so many couples desperate to adopt, it could be argued that the 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth would be more favourable than the taking of a life.
As noted, I am on the fence on the issue myself, but if I'm honest the "my body, my choice" argument always seemed a little selfish to me and I notice how this argument is not used as much by those for abortion as it used to be...

 

[Purple]

True, but imagine being pregnant against your will?

Yes, it's horrendous. There's no "good" outcome in that scenario.

 

[Sunny]

Some people see abortion on-demand as a form of contraception though...

Sigh. Who does? Show me the numbers of people having repeat abortions? Show me the number of people who order abortion XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX repeatedly? Show me any evidence that any sort of significant number of women with half a brain consider abortion as a form of contraception. Even the term 'abortion on demand' sounds like a term created by men (one myself).

 

[odyssey06]

Sigh. Who does? Show me the numbers of people having repeat abortions? Show me the number of people who order abortion XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX repeatedly? Show me any evidence that any sort of significant number of women with half a brain consider abortion as a form of contraception. Even the term 'abortion on demand' sounds like a term created by men (one myself).

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18249026

[broken link removed] show 34% of women having an abortion last year had had one before. It continues an increasing trend of 31% in 2001, 32% in 2005 and 34% in 2010.

 

[cremeegg]

Show me the numbers of people having repeat abortions? .

38% of abortions in England and Wales in 2016 were to women who had had one or more previous abortions.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/abortion-stats-2016-commentary-with-tables.pdf

This is an increase from 2011 when the figure was 34%

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18249026

the number of annual abortions is 1.2 million per year in the United States.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that more than 44 percent of these were repeat abortions, and 1 in 5 represent a third or even higher order abortion.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...would-reveal-the-shocking-number-of-abortions

 

[Purple]

It's complicated and not black and white. Again, there are potentially many different scenarios at play. Ultimately though, it is the woman who has to endure pregnancy and childbirth.

I'm not asking you to suggest a solution or offer a fix. I'm just asking you if you think it's right that the father has no rights.
My view is that it isn't but any potential solution would mean a far greater, and totally unacceptable, curtailment of the rights of the mother.

 

[Andarma]

I'm not asking you to suggest a solution or offer a fix. I'm just asking you if you think it's right that the father has no rights.
My view is that it isn't but any potential solution would mean a far greater, and totally unacceptable, curtailment of the rights of the mother.

I can’t say whether they should or not. Would a feckless guy who runs away at the mention of the word ‘pregnancy’ have the same rights as a husband and father to other children in a marriage? I don’t think so. The fact remains though that it’s the woman who has to go through pregnancy and birth.

 

[Purple]

Would a feckless guy who runs away at the mention of the word ‘pregnancy’ have the same rights as a husband and father to other children in a marriage? I don’t think so.

Why is a guy feckless if he doesn't want to be a parent when a woman who doesn't want to be one (and, unlike the man, gets to make that decision) is just exercising her rights?
Should we describe a woman who doesn't want to be a mother fecklessly running away to an abortion clinic to kill her child? Maybe we should avoid emotive and offensive stereotypes.

There is no way that a man can exercise any rights he may have as a father in this scenario but it's just another example of how morally and ethically complex this issue is.

 

[zxcvbnm]

So here's an article as to why Ryan Tubridys ex Aoibheann O'Shuiileabhain wrote for the sunday indo as to why she is voting yes.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/...men-deserve-care-and-compassion-36855046.html

She wrote an excellent piece in fairness to her and articulated her points very well - with one exception !

She states "...but research shows that rates of abortion occur far less in countries where it is legal, than in countries where it is illegal." This is part of he reasoning for voting yes.
This is vey frustrating to read.

It is entirely incorrect - and it is completely the crux of the issue as to why many/most are against abortion. There is no way that the rate of abortion in England is "far less" than that of Ireland. And England is the closest point of reference we have in terns of culture etc.

For such an important vote I find it infuriating that people just get the most important - yet basic - facts incorrect. And get nothing but plaudits on twitter.

Needless to say her article went down fantastically well in twitterland from all the repealers.

If you're going to vote yes then fine...its your right. But please don't give out nonsense like that in an article when explaining yourself.

 

[Andarma]

You seem to be rehashing and misrepresenting some high-profile cases perhaps hoping to bolster support for repeal, which is now waning as the prospect of unrestricted abortion looms large.

Decrying the Eighth Amendment for restricting doctors is disingenuous. Section 48 (page 35) of the Medical Council Guidelines makes it clear that doctors can and should provide all necessary medical treatment to expectant women, the Eighth Amendment being no impediment in this regard.

The proposed liberal abortion-on-demand regime goes far beyond edge cases. If the Eighth Amendment is repealed then every year thousands more voiceless, unborn girls and boys will have their beating hearts stopped on the strength of falsehoods and in the name of Choice.

I find it impossible to reconcile those guidelines, particularly section 46 on end of life care, with the case of PP v HSE https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...-clinically-dead-pregnant-woman-30863340.html

 

[Purple]

She wrote an excellent piece in fairness to her and articulated her points very well - with one exception !

There's a second error; she says that "In 2012, Savita Halappanavar died as a result of being denied an abortion while suffering a septic miscarriage." She died due to serious mistakes by medical staff. The Coroner's Inquest which was held found that she died of medical misadventure.

There are sound reasons for introducing abortion on demand (as opposed to abortion for medical reasons). The Yes side should stop telling emotive lies to support their case but rather stick to the facts.