"No jobs mantra suits the work-shy and welfare abuser"

[Complainer]

Some interesting responses to the original article (which I've just realised was written by head-honcho of the now defunct PD party) in the Irish Times Letters pages;

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

 

[Gekko]

Just got into this thread. Boy, do some of you guys worry me. I have never been unemployed and paid my taxes, children's education fees etc. But i think that you are very quick to condemn the unemployed. People find themselves on the dole for a very wide variety of reasons: ability, qualifications, family background, lack of peer support or example, "wrong side of tracks", health issues, caring for someone, etc etc. I haven't noticed any mention of the role of employers. Employers hire the best value for money and non nationals provide good value in many countries. They have little local support if things go wrong so they make sure to be on time, do what they are tole and give no "trouble". We have attacked the public servants and their jobs for life and big pensions but so little mention of the bankers, who from top to near the bottom benefited from mad bad lending policies. The courts left Seanie F with enough money to live on and you want to reduce an uneployed person to nil ! Never forget that the bankers and politicians (but mainly Bankers who mislead a stupid government and this is not only in Ireland) who got us to the position we are in. Not the unemployed and those on welfare. Real nations are judged on the way they treat those most in need. Those receiving welfare benefits while working on the BLACK economy are a different kettle of fish. They must be rooted out. Have any of you ever hired someone like that or paid cash so that no VAT was paid? I hear this happens!!

Now that you've had your rant, are you opposed to doing something about social welfare recipients who refuse jobs or upskilling and training?

 

[Sunny]

Now that you've had your rant, are you opposed to doing something about social welfare recipients who refuse jobs or upskilling and training?

Nobody is against doing something about people who choose welfare for a way of life but I am more interested in reforming the entire social welfare system rather than laying the blame purely on the unemployed. Like I say, many of you are happy enough to claim childrens benefit that you don't need. I find that harder to defend than paying a jobless person €200 a week.

 

[Gekko]

Nobody is against doing something about people who choose welfare for a way of life but I am more interested in reforming the entire social welfare system rather than laying the blame purely on the unemployed. Like I say, many of you are happy enough to claim childrens benefit that you don't need. I find that harder to defend than paying a jobless person €200 a week.

I've heard it all now...your attempt to demonise families who work and contribute to society is in extremely bad taste, as is your use of the phrase "many of you".

What about the thousands of wasters who are paid €200 a week? What about the thousands of wasters who were claiming unemployment benefit during the boom when we effectively had full employment?

 

[Purple]

I've heard it all now...your attempt to demonise families who work and contribute to society is in extremely bad taste, as is your use of the phrase "many of you".

I think it’s a fair point. I’ve posted many times that its nonsense to give children’s allowance to people on high incomes. BTW, I’m one of them; I have 4 children so I get €7’500 in tax free welfare payments from the state each year. That’s nuts.

What about the thousands of wasters who are paid €200 a week? What about the thousands of wasters who were claiming unemployment benefit during the boom when we effectively had full employment?

You are mixing up too many points. There is a serious problem with welfare fraud in this country. The reason for this is that people won’t report their neighbours, friends or family for this theft but that’s no reason to cut rates.

I don’t think people on welfare deserve to have the rates cut. I do think that the country can’t afford the current welfare bill and so will have to cut rates anyway.
How is to blame, what’s fair and what people deserve is a different issue.

 

[Gekko]

I think it’s a fair point. I’ve posted many times that its nonsense to give children’s allowance to people on high incomes. BTW, I’m one of them; I have 4 children so I get €7’500 in tax free welfare payments from the state each year. That’s nuts.


You are mixing up too many points. There is a serious problem with welfare fraud in this country. The reason for this is that people won’t report their neighbours, friends or family for this theft but that’s no reason to cut rates.

I don’t think people on welfare deserve to have the rates cut. I do think that the country can’t afford the current welfare bill and so will have to cut rates anyway.
How is to blame, what’s fair and what people deserve is a different issue.

These issues are all interlinked.

You SHOULD get that level of child benefit and if you didn't you should get four extra personal tax credits of €1,650 (i.e. €6,600) to reflect the fact that you're supporting four extra people.

However, before hammering the middle classes again (i.e the ones who actually contribute to society rather than milk it), it's imperative that as much waste as possible is eliminated.

 

[Sunny]

These issues are all interlinked.

You SHOULD get that level of child benefit and if you didn't you should get four extra personal tax credits of €1,650 (i.e. €6,600) to reflect the fact that you're supporting four extra people.

However, before hammering the middle classes again (i.e the ones who actually contribute to society rather than milk it), it's imperative that as much waste as possible is eliminated.

Why SHOULD he get that the money? Why should the State pay money for people to have kids? I have put off starting a family until i was financially secure on my own. I dont expect social welfare or tax credits. I would rather the State paid more on childcare and childrens health. People love comparing our social welfare to other countries so you go to some European countries, explain how much you get for having kids and watch their reaction.

I am middle class but unlike you I dont envy all my friends who have recently lost jobs and neither to I begrudge them a decent level of State support while they try and get on their feet again. Many of them have failed and rather than live off the State or give up on their careers have decided to emigrate. None o
I know are sitting around laughing at the taxpayers for being mugs.

The problem with things like this is we always think it is a great idea to slash social welfare until it actually affects us.

 

[onq]

The minimum wage is too high, I don't know why Fine Gael reversed the cuts. Surely wages that are too high are part of the problem. I think it was just a purely populist move by FG, not related to our economic situation, or to what is good for our country.
(If FG wanted to break election promises why not that one?)

Social welfare rates are too high.

I explained this to a guy who applied to me for a job, with no experience of cabinet making. I explained that I could employ experienced people at little more than the minimum wage.. mostly Polish lads it must be said, but from my point of view there's little difference.

So there is no lower wage available to pay him! He offered to work for free!, in order to gain experience which is essential to get a job in a hands-on cabinet making workshop.

Why don't you go and give up your job to a younger guy on the dole with qualifications coming out his ears Joe and let's see you survive in this economy on what you get on the Dole.

The fact is many people DO need the dole to survive, so a revision rates will unfairly target those.

The other act is that the Dole, like every other part of Ireland's economy is riddled with corrupt practices.

The correct procedure therefore is for the armchair critics both here and in government like Joan Burton to realize that we need to target the Dole scroungers amongst us,
(i) those who are not entitled to claim
(ii) those who are claiming on the double and
(iii) those holding down jobs while they claim.

But that would sound a bit like too much work for Joan perhaps.
I'm sure she has more important things to do with her Ministerial time than actually DO HER JOB and weed out the rotten apples!
Far easier just to declare everyone who is getting PAID BY THE STATE to be scroungers, and take shots at easy targets who are down on their luck.

This needs far more than cheerleaders for Joan Burton's level of political and economic analysis to repeat her wittering on AAM.
The primary thing, which this and the previous government have signally failed to do is GET OUR BANKS LENDING AGAIN!!!

Only then will be see a recovery in indigenous industry, as opposed to merely a rise in the balance of payments due to FDI's taking their profits here but not working here.
The rise is welcome, but it doesn't put people back to work and in many ways disguises the impoverishment of Ireland's economic diversity which Purple alludes to in another post.

Chasing profits by relocating to other countries has benefited multi-national companies but beggared Western Nations.
its time to look past the easy "solution" of cutting the Dole - a sop to right wing industrialists - and see where our problems really lie.

ONQ.

 

[onq]

We’ve lost nearly half of our manufacturing jobs since the high point in the early 90’s.
Many of these job losses were due to technological advancements that rendered plants or even industries obsolete. Examples of this are Fruit of the Loom in the North West and Packard Electric in Tallaght, Dublin.
There are far more examples of companies just moving to lower cost locations. The fall of the Iron Curtain and the opening up of China made much of this inevitable. The rest is the disturbing part; businesses that have moved to the UK, Germany and Holland because they are cheaper and/or better than us.
In the 1980’s there was no Eastern Europe or China to move to; they were closed for business. We were the Poland of the day, we just had to get into the party and it was inevitable that we would level up economically. Now we are the ones who are too expensive and the new kids on the block are eating away at us from the bottom up. I don’t know what the solution is but as long as we are more expensive than mainland Western European competition that is better located and technically superior to us we haven’t a chance.

There is a lot of truth in what you say Purple. but dealing with Social Welfare fraud (as opposed to lowering rates) is only part of the problem.

I put €20 in the tank this morning and was charged €20.24 when I went to pay.

"Oh you must have put some in and then went again.," came the dinsingenouous but oddly straw man reply.

Normally the first thing to do would be to check the amount registered, but this guy jumped from that to suggesting I had put in 24 cent(!), replaced the filler, let it reset, and then put in €20.

I am quite paranoid about fillers not having been reset, so its like confession - you want for it to reset correctly, then start the fuel delivery.

The only reason I copped this chancer was the fact that for once the counter stopped EXACTLY on €20.00 and it was still on €20.00 when I left the counter, whipping my card out of the machine with a flourish and checked the fuel pump reading.

Nos this is a little Irelander victory and I saw the dim reflection of Captain Mainwaring in my mind's eye as I stalked out to check the pump.

But look at the way retail prices have held up IN A RECESSION!

The cost of living here has not dropped significantly.

Worse did you know that a failed entity like Anglo-Irish Bank changed its fleet Mercedes cars this year?

There is a long way to go for the monied élite to take a chop in income, when the discredited clowns in Anglo are driving around in new Mercs.

ONQ.

 

[Chris]

Without some decent economic analysis, the impact is far from certain. There would indeed be a saving on welfare spending. There would also be reduced VAT and customs and excise arising from reduced spending. The reductions in retail spending would lead to lower corporation tax income and reduced employment in retail. The reduced employment would mean reduced employment taxes, reduced knock on spending, and increased welfare requirements.

There is no net gain to taxation when tax funds are given to people to spend. If €100 is taken out of tax revenue and handed to someone who spends it, attracting 21% VAT this does not mean that government is taking in more money. The economy is still down €100 which was taxed away.

I'm still not getting any idea from where you expect these low-skill low-wage jobs to come from. You could cut welfare/minimum wage by a factor of ten and we still won't be competing with eastern Europe or China, so we're not going to get manufacturing jobs. Where are these jobs going to come from?

But how does a country like Germany manage to compete on a global scale? Germany has no official minimum wage and has big restrictions on welfare entitlements. Wages are high, and yet it is one the biggest and most successful exporters in the world.

Probably not. Given the 300k unemployed people not qualifying for benefits, there is a pretty good chance that some of those will be taking up any available jobs.

But you're right to question me, as my language was sloppy. It is probably not true to say that there is no net economic benefit. There would indeed be some saving on dole spending. This may be countered by some additional welfare spending on things like FIS or other supports for those who's income have dropped.

Reducing one type of welfare should not automatically trigger another type of welfare to be increased. The whole idea should be to reduce the public's dependence on welfare and you cannot achieve that by increasing welfare.

 

[smyths]

Sorry if it was a rant, Gekko. I didn't think it was but I reckon you would be a good judge of rant. Yes I agree that those of the live register should be offered training and upskilling opportunities and receive some sanctions if they refuse any reasonable offer. Actually when we had the recession in the 80s more unemployed people applied for the Social Employment Scheme run by FAS, than there were places available. Most people would prefer to work. There is more to work than money. It has a social function and effects one's health, self esteem etc. There are some fiddlers but there are more fiddling elsewhere and what are you doing about them.

 

[Complainer]

There is no net gain to taxation when tax funds are given to people to spend. If €100 is taken out of tax revenue and handed to someone who spends it, attracting 21% VAT this does not mean that government is taking in more money. The economy is still down €100 which was taxed away.


But how does a country like Germany manage to compete on a global scale? Germany has no official minimum wage and has big restrictions on welfare entitlements. Wages are high, and yet it is one the biggest and most successful exporters in the world.


Reducing one type of welfare should not automatically trigger another type of welfare to be increased. The whole idea should be to reduce the public's dependence on welfare and you cannot achieve that by increasing welfare.

All very interesting stuff, but I I don't quite see the relevance to this debate about reducing minimum wage and reducing welfare as a mechanism to get people back to work.

The other act is that the Dole, like every other part of Ireland's economy is riddled with corrupt practices.

The correct procedure therefore is for the armchair critics both here and in government like Joan Burton to realize that we need to target the Dole scroungers amongst us,
(i) those who are not entitled to claim
(ii) those who are claiming on the double and
(iii) those holding down jobs while they claim.

But that would sound a bit like too much work for Joan perhaps.
I'm sure she has more important things to do with her Ministerial time than actually DO HER JOB and weed out the rotten apples!
Far easier just to declare everyone who is getting PAID BY THE STATE to be scroungers, and take shots at easy targets who are down on their luck.

 

[onq]

All very interesting stuff, but I I don't quite see the relevance to this debate about reducing minimum wage and reducing welfare as a mechanism to get people back to work.

Home visits merely put the scroungers under stress - which I agree with - but you need the carrot-and-stick approach.

I suggest the Back to Work Scheme needs to be widened to include all long term Dole recipients with a three year limit and immediate cut off if they don't either attend (whatever is appropriate). After the three years they are re-assessed.

All of the Dole recipients, particularly those on disability allowance of some sort, are fully re-assessed to see why they are disabled. This asessment starts covertly to assess whether they are as disabled as their last certificate or test result seemed to show. Any doctors who fraudulently certified disability are automatically struck off the medical register. The Medical Council is not involved in this process. They are simply notified.

During the three years work is done for the Dole money and/or the following sequence of courses must be attended AND PASSED.

Not attending the courses is not an option.

Dropping out isn't an option.

Failing the courses isn't an option.

No excuses, in other words.

Yes, it starts looking very right wing from this point because it effectively means that people who won't improve, won't learn and won't work don't get any money.

The courses should be offered starting with the lowest common denominator - addicted, illiterate and innumerate.

• drug/alcohol/cigarette rehabilitation programs - otherwise their money is spent on these luxuries they cannot afford
• adult literacy and numeracy programmes otherwise any other programs and upskilling cannot be addressed
• home economics courses - to ensure that their money spending will be prioritized and they and their kids eat a good balanced nutiotious diet
• family planning courses to prevent unwanted pregnanceis and reduce the burden of ht state if providing for children of people who cannot support them
• wellness and motivation courses - to ensure they are supported in their break from whatever rut they are in that's holding them back and to promote a Positive Mental Attitude.
• upskilling courses - to improve their chances of becoming employed
• mangement courses - to build on this and help them manage their business should any wish to start one.

Allied to this must be a "prevention is better than cure" initiative centred on early intervention for children at risk who are being raised by dysfunctional teenagers and adults.

Preference for support in the family and being cared for by older family members needs to be balanced by assessing the risk of abuse in the family.

The social protection side of this needs to be balanced by garda intervention side to prevent children at risk from being inducted into a life of crime from an early stage.

This in turn involves our local councils becoming involved in community programmes of works through which the requirement to work for their dole is seen as a "working for their community" activity by those involved and those benefiting, including the involvement of Mentors and Role Models to increase self-esteem and motivation.

As for the "intelligentsia" who think that a simple-minded cutting of the Dole paments will address never mind solve the many layered issues here, get a grip!

All that does is put families under more pressure.

It doesn't address the problems.

ONQ.

 

[onq]

Why SHOULD he get that the money? Why should the State pay money for people to have kids? I have put off starting a family until i was financially secure on my own. I dont expect social welfare or tax credits. I would rather the State paid more on childcare and childrens health. People love comparing our social welfare to other countries so you go to some European countries, explain how much you get for having kids and watch their reaction.

I am middle class but unlike you I dont envy all my friends who have recently lost jobs and neither to I begrudge them a decent level of State support while they try and get on their feet again. Many of them have failed and rather than live off the State or give up on their careers have decided to emigrate. None o
I know are sitting around laughing at the taxpayers for being mugs.

The problem with things like this is we always think it is a great idea to slash social welfare until it actually affects us.

Absolutely agree and my other post refers.
Slashing the dole will only put the chancers out robbing people.

First we have to suss out the scroungers from those genuinely in need.

Then we must make a register of the scroungers and offer them
- a work-for-your-dole option or
- deportation and revocation of Irish citizenship.

Harsh perhaps, but it'll send the right message to a lot of places.
Citizenship should be a privilege, not a right
People should value it instead of selling Irish Passports to criminals and rich people.

ONQ.

 

[Delboy]

With respect to non-EU foreigners, I just found this [broken link removed] that suggests the number of non-EU citizens in Ireland in 2010 was about 75K, one of the lowest levels in the EU.

Jim.

75k seems very very light. At the 2006 census the offical figure for the Chinese community alone was 11k. But their own community organisations here and NGO's have publicly said that the real figure is between 60k and 100k

 

[Chris]

All very interesting stuff, but I I don't quite see the relevance to this debate about reducing minimum wage and reducing welfare as a mechanism to get people back to work.

It simply economics of supply and demand. Wages are the price of labour, just like every other good or service exchanged in an economy has a price. If a farmer has 100 apples and can only get interest for 80 of them at a price of €1 then he has to reduce his prices to attract more demand. In other words there is an oversupply of goods at current prices.
If the same farmer has 100 apples which attract interest for 120 of them at a price of €0.5 then prices need to increase in order to attract more production of apples to make up for the shortfall.
The very same laws of supply and demand apply to unemployment. There are about 400,000 unemployed at the moment. The reason they cannot find work is because businesses cannot afford to hire them at current wage rates. In other words, there is an oversupply of workers, just as in the first example of the farmer above.
Now there are two reasons why wages are not falling enough for businesses to start hiring again, (a) there is a very high minimum wage and (b) unemployed people are discouraged from taking on work that pays the same or less than their welfare entitlements.
If businesses could advertise jobs at lower wage rates and people were encouraged to take on those jobs then unemployment would go down. When supply and demand are artificially hampered then there will be no market clearing price, this is something that has been understood since Adam Smith in the 18th century.

 

[Gekko]

unlike you I dont envy all my friends who have recently lost jobs

A bizarre comment.

Why would I "envy all my friends who have recently lost jobs"?

I pity them.

 

[Sunny]

A bizarre comment.

Why would I "envy all my friends who have recently lost jobs"?

I pity them.

You are the one that wants to chop unemployment benefits because it is too generous or because people are wasters who abuse it. You obviously think people on the dole have it a lot easier than us middle class people who contribute something to society. (They are your words)

 

[Gekko]

You are the one that wants to chop unemployment benefits because it is too generous or because people are wasters who abuse it. You obviously think people on the dole have it a lot easier than us middle class people who contribute something to society. (They are your words)

Dole recipients who refuse jobs or upskilling should have their dole cut. Genuine hardship cases should of course be helped.

Waste is the biggest financial sin of our government system. How much child benefit is being paid to families who left the State years ago and just being withdrawn overseas from otherwise dormant Irish bank accounts?

And yes, the wasters do have it easier because they get something for nothing.

 

[Complainer]

Now there are two reasons why wages are not falling enough for businesses to start hiring again, (a) there is a very high minimum wage and (b) unemployed people are discouraged from taking on work that pays the same or less than their welfare entitlements.
If businesses could advertise jobs at lower wage rates and people were encouraged to take on those jobs then unemployment would go down.

Would you care to give some kinds of examples of the kinds of business and industries that will create new jobs (not displace existing jobs) by offering wages below the current minimum wage level?