"No jobs mantra suits the work-shy and welfare abuser"
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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I don't think we should sack existing non-EU workers.
But don't allow any more in!! We have 300,000 unemployed!!!
That wouldn't be fair.
Her point was that the €1,680 payment that an income earning family receive equates to the personal tax credit that the family should/would receive if for whatever reason they were no longer entitled to a child benefit payment.
Dual income families where both earners pay tax at the top rate receive the same payment as single-income families under the tax net
Someone who already earns enough to be in the tax net shouldn't receive the payment tax-free
How many of all those people you saw on your walks are Irish citizens? Did you ask them their nationality? Were they foreign students working part time which they are perfectly entitled to do?
I think the idea of an income related, reducing, social welfare payment is a good one and it's often proposed. But I haven't seen any analysis of the cost of it. I would imagine that it would cost far more than our current system (absent any reduction in the numbers claiming due to it's incentive effect) given the long term rate would have to be at least half of the current rate to allow recipients survive and the short term rates would be a multiple of the current rate.
Estimating the cost would be pretty complex because you would need to have a good understanding of the composition of the recently unemployed, which is obviously continuously changing. It would be a worthwhile project for the ESRI though.
Yes, some could be in this situation.
That is a scheme with plenty of abuse of the 20-hr rule.
Well then police the scheme. Lets not go down the BNP route and start a kick out the foreigners or force them out campaign. As far as I know, there are very few if any new permits given out anymore unless necessary (doctors).
Slightly off-topics but... Our health system would be in big trouble if we couldn't recruit non-EU doctors who are often the only ones willing to take up the non-training positions in some of our rural hospitals. You can't just pluck someone from the dole queue and put them to work as a doctor and I don't think we have any unemployed doctors. Our own graduates often head overseas rather take up some of the less attractive junior doctor positions here.
Brendan Burgess
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The article is about the relative attraction of welfare rates over minimum wage jobs. It has nothing to do with Indian doctors.
As has been pointed out many times, if we have high welfare rates, there is no incentive for people to work for the minimum wage, which is itself very high.
My respect for Joan Burton would rise dramatically if she follows through with her common sense talk. And if she combines it with huge cuts in social welfare rates to make working more attractive to Irish people.
If working in a meat plant or a retailer or a hotel is beneath someone, that is fine. But they should not be getting social welfare.
brendan
As has been pointed out many times, if we have high welfare rates, there is no incentive for people to work for the minimum wage, which is itself very high.
My respect for Joan Burton would rise dramatically if she follows through with her common sense talk. And if she combines it with huge cuts in social welfare rates to make working more attractive to Irish people.
If working in a meat plant or a retailer or a hotel is beneath someone, that is fine. But they should not be getting social welfare.
brendan
G
gaf1983
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Interesting article
As others have pointed out here, no, work permits aren't issued for fast food workers, however, other non-EU immigrants, such as non-EU students are entitled to work up to 20 hours per week during term time and 40 hours per week during their holidays. This is an area that's abused by employers and employees alike, but it seems like the authorities are paying a blind eye or at best lip service to this problem.
Regarding your comment, you say "You'd be mad to employ the person from outside the EU because you'd have to pay social welfare to the other 200." Who is the "you" that you refer to? If you're referring to the government/taxpayer of course you're right, however the reality is that the "you" in question who makes the decision about hiring is the employer, and they're often more likely to go for a non-EU worker who may be willing to do the job for less than the minimum wage.
There is nothing stopping the government reversing the granting of the right to work to international students - such rights were removed recently in Britain:
Google: :"Student visa curbs 'not based on evidence' timeshighereducation", 26 July 2011
(I'm not allowed post URLs yet. There is also an interesting discussion in the comments section below the article).
However, this could cause knock-on effects for the education sector who often rely on the fees international students pay to subsidise their other courses. The average cost of living for a student in Ireland is €7,000 per year, so it might be quite harsh to remove students' rights to support themselves while they are here, so if the right to work while studying was completely removed then this could cause serious problems for the third-level sector who would then only be able to attract the very wealthiest non-EU students. (I should declare a conflict of interest here: I work for an English Language School with a number of non-EU students who are living in Ireland on student visas).
I completely agree that Fine Gael were wrong to reverse their decision on the minimum wage. Clearly it is set too high at the moment, if scrupulous employers are forced to turn down inexperienced workers in need of experience and unscrupulous employers rely on sub-minimum wage labour in order to keep their businesses in operation.
As others have pointed out here, no, work permits aren't issued for fast food workers, however, other non-EU immigrants, such as non-EU students are entitled to work up to 20 hours per week during term time and 40 hours per week during their holidays. This is an area that's abused by employers and employees alike, but it seems like the authorities are paying a blind eye or at best lip service to this problem.
Regarding your comment, you say "You'd be mad to employ the person from outside the EU because you'd have to pay social welfare to the other 200." Who is the "you" that you refer to? If you're referring to the government/taxpayer of course you're right, however the reality is that the "you" in question who makes the decision about hiring is the employer, and they're often more likely to go for a non-EU worker who may be willing to do the job for less than the minimum wage.
There is nothing stopping the government reversing the granting of the right to work to international students - such rights were removed recently in Britain:
Google: :"Student visa curbs 'not based on evidence' timeshighereducation", 26 July 2011
(I'm not allowed post URLs yet. There is also an interesting discussion in the comments section below the article).
However, this could cause knock-on effects for the education sector who often rely on the fees international students pay to subsidise their other courses. The average cost of living for a student in Ireland is €7,000 per year, so it might be quite harsh to remove students' rights to support themselves while they are here, so if the right to work while studying was completely removed then this could cause serious problems for the third-level sector who would then only be able to attract the very wealthiest non-EU students. (I should declare a conflict of interest here: I work for an English Language School with a number of non-EU students who are living in Ireland on student visas).
I completely agree that Fine Gael were wrong to reverse their decision on the minimum wage. Clearly it is set too high at the moment, if scrupulous employers are forced to turn down inexperienced workers in need of experience and unscrupulous employers rely on sub-minimum wage labour in order to keep their businesses in operation.
As I said, I think social welfare should be reduced across the board but do people honestly believe there are 400k jobs out there just waiting to be filled by lazy work dodgers. Let's discuss social welfare rates but lets have a realistic discussion on it and not just think a halving of social welfare will suddenly lead to a 50% drop in the live register or something.
Every decision made in this area has consequences. It's not a stroke of a pen decision.
Every decision made in this area has consequences. It's not a stroke of a pen decision.
You actually did, here is a direct quote: "the free school books and (in some areas) free school meals etc"
You also refer to free UK services in another thread: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1186754&postcount=35
Quote: "Public servants and social welfare recipients in the UK have the NHS to suppoort them, with free primary health care, free prescriptions, no need to buy private health insurance unless you want a fancy room."
Well from feedback that Purple has provided on this site and from having talked to hotel, restaurant and other small business owners in the town I live in it seems that they overwhelmingly employ foreign nationals because most applicants are foreign and unlike the Irish counterparts are willing to work for wages that are lower.
Without wanting to speak for Purple, I very much doubt he said that he employs foreigners because they are willing to work for lower wages than their Irish Counterparts. I have heard him discuss skill shortages among the Irish workforce.
Complainer
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Given that we have over 400k unemployed at present, where do you expect the jobs to come from for these people?
Brendan Burgess
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I don't think that there are 400k people unemployed? Isn't that the number for the live register?
They will compete with non EU citizens for the work that is there if they have to do so to live.
In general, if the costs of doing business in Ireland are reduced, Ireland will become more competitive and more jobs will be created.
It won't abolish unemployment but it will reduce the Social Welfare bill and it will help employers to create jobs.
Brendan
They will compete with non EU citizens for the work that is there if they have to do so to live.
In general, if the costs of doing business in Ireland are reduced, Ireland will become more competitive and more jobs will be created.
It won't abolish unemployment but it will reduce the Social Welfare bill and it will help employers to create jobs.
Brendan
The reason we employ foreign nationals (both EU and non-EU) is because they apply for a job and they are the best candidate. If the best applicant for a particular job is Irish then they will get the job. Where someone is from or what their colour, creed or sexual orientation is is irrelevant.
Where I work we’ve just taken our second pay cut in 12 months. That’s what we’ve had to do to stay busy and viable. What people deserve and what they can live on doesn’t come into it. What the business can afford to pay in the issue. The same applies to welfare rates etc. I’m not going to say that people on welfare get too much but I can say with certainty that the country can’t afford to pay out what it’s paying.
Over the last 10 years lots of non-Irish nationals took jobs that Irish people didn’t want so why should they be kicked out now because suddenly the Irish guy finds he’s willing to lower himself to do it?(BTW, there's no such thing as a "Non-National; everyone is from somewhere). If we want to limit the number of non-EU national coming here then that’s fine but we still have a skills shortage that won’t be filled with unemployed brickies, plumbers or carpenters any time soon.
Where I work we’ve just taken our second pay cut in 12 months. That’s what we’ve had to do to stay busy and viable. What people deserve and what they can live on doesn’t come into it. What the business can afford to pay in the issue. The same applies to welfare rates etc. I’m not going to say that people on welfare get too much but I can say with certainty that the country can’t afford to pay out what it’s paying.
Over the last 10 years lots of non-Irish nationals took jobs that Irish people didn’t want so why should they be kicked out now because suddenly the Irish guy finds he’s willing to lower himself to do it?(BTW, there's no such thing as a "Non-National; everyone is from somewhere). If we want to limit the number of non-EU national coming here then that’s fine but we still have a skills shortage that won’t be filled with unemployed brickies, plumbers or carpenters any time soon.
potnoodler
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why dont we just abolish the minimum wage and end all social welfares payments across the board , according to some this is the answer to creating half a million jobs, out of where and what.
Interesting article in the Sindo this was that 20% of private sector workers are on part time hours(course that would have to analyzed)
Interesting article in the Sindo this was that 20% of private sector workers are on part time hours(course that would have to analyzed)
Here in Switzerland unemployment benefit is restricted to 18 months, provided you have been in employment for the last two years. The unemployment benefits are usually set at between 70% and 80% of your final month's pay cheque, to a max of about €7,500 per month.
During the benefit period you are not or required to take a job outside your profession or too far from home, but you are required to show proof that you have applied for at least 3 jobs per week. During that period a government agency similar to FAS will assess your employability, in terms of your current skills and the market situation. If they determine that you need retraining, it will be offered, but if you refuse, then your benefits are stopped.
If after the 18 months are up, you still have not found a new job, then you are on your own - there are no further welfare payments! You can then either take what ever work is going or try and see if your local community authorities are willing to support you, this will normally only be done if you can show you are destitute and have tried every other option, including living of the relatives, in such cases you will normally be required to make yourself available for what ever work the community required doing, be that digging ditches or cleaning latrines!
In hard times, this usually means that foreigners will return home after the unemployment benefit runs out and the Swiss will take whatever jobs are on offer.
Jim.
PS - I guess I should also add that there is no redundancy payments or unfair dismissals over here - an employment contract is just like any other. As long as the employer sticks to the terms of the contract, meaning the notice period, there is nothing you can do, no matter how long you have been employed by the company.