That will be news to the 14% of Israeli citizens who are Arab Muslims, and the 4% who are Christian (Arab and non-Arab). 82% are Jewish but of them many are secular Jews and many oppose the policies of their government. That's the thing about Israel; it's a democracy where, unlike their neighbours, people are free to voice their opinions.
What's that meant to mean? You are being lazy with the facts and that undermines your points and creates the impression that you have a pre-existing bias.I'm sure that's a comfort to those who had their passports stolen
I wish I could see your face if another country invaded ireland, took your stuff and confined you to a remote corner of the island.
No bias here
I just don't think that those whose passports/identities were stolen by "whoever" are comforted by the fact that they live in a democracy
That's the thing about Israel; it's a democracy where, unlike their neighbours, people are free to voice their opinions.
Are you referring to the initial invasion and expulsion of the Jewish population hundreds of years ago or the expulsion of Arabs from present day Israel in the 1940’s (at the same time as a small population of Jews were being expelled from present day Jordan)?
If, in your opinion, the fact that the initial Jewish expulsion took place many hundreds of years ago makes their subsequent claim on the area invalid then logically you must hold equally strong pro-unionist views and support partition in the Irish historical context.
Is that why when Britain and France attempted to re-take Suez by force it was America who made them back down? You really need to do a bit of reading on the topic before you make sweeping generalisations about Western colonial policy in the post war period. I suggest something on the emergence of Arab nationalism from the early 1800's onward.what happened hundreds of years ago as you say it, happened without the external influence of other countries such as the US/europe etc.
truth is we didnt know what to do with them in the 40s and just chose to please the US & others that needed a stronghold in the middle east.
Well let’s see, France was a long established and sovereign state which was invaded by another sovereign state. The same is not the case in Palestine. The sole aggressor was Germany. In the case of Israel it is far more complex with a fractured Empire being carved up, historical tensions that date back to pre-Ottoman times, massive emigration, both legal and illegal by both Arabs and Jews into Transjordan from 1880 to 1948, tribal power-plays in present day Jordan, Western guilt about the Holocaust and the cruel dispassion of a Palestinian people who have been used and abused by all of their neighbours ever since.but tell me again whats the difference with the partisans in italy/france please.
My apology, I was referring to posts by nmesisca.Also, what facts am I being lazy with?
I would consider "And now the oppressed becomes the oppressor." to be a sweeping generalisation.Where have I made sweeping generalisations about anything?
Is that why when Britain and France attempted to re-take Suez by force it was America who made them back down? You really need to do a bit of reading on the topic before you make sweeping generalisations about Western colonial policy in the post war period. I suggest something on the emergence of Arab nationalism from the early 1800's onward.
Well let’s see, France was a long established and sovereign state which was invaded by another sovereign state. The same is not the case in Palestine. The sole aggressor was Germany. In the case of Israel it is far more complex with a fractured Empire being carved up, historical tensions that date back to pre-Ottoman times, massive emigration, both legal and illegal by both Arabs and Jews into Transjordan from 1880 to 1948, tribal power-plays in present day Jordan, Western guilt about the Holocaust and the cruel dispassion of a Palestinian people who have been used and abused by all of their neighbours ever since.
As for armed resistance, I don't remember reading about the French resistance deliberately blowing up busses full of school children. If you can post information to the contrary then I stand corrected. By the way Primo Levi, the famous author and Auschwitz survivor, was an Italian partisan prior to his capture.
Israel was created by British when they ran Palestine under mandated from the League of Nations. I am aware that the mandate was a glorified fig leaf but the substantive point is that the Ottoman Empire had collapsed and the victors of the First World War were running the shattered remains of it. Therefore there was no state called Palestine that was either invaded or partitioned. The West Bank and Gaza were taken by force by Egypt and Syria and then retaken by force by Israel. In the context of an invasion and occupation who and what are you talking about?so if its not a well established and sovereign state that its invaded we just dont give a flying fiddlers?
Why are you bringing NATO and the US into this and since when do they deliberately target children?you say you dont remember them bombing buses full of kids, still NATO and the US are doing just that. the only difference is that they issue "apologies" after the fact.
Well you have me there, I’m not Italian and I was still in primary school in 1987 when he died so even if I knew him I doubt I would have had that much to say to him back then.btw, Primo Levi was a partisan, from my home town. I met him and spoke with him extensively on the subject.
he showed me the caves in which he was hiding waiting for the invading troops that were transporting weapons through the alpine passes. more than one of them blew himself up attempting to stop them.
my home town was erased from the maps. bombed then burned to the ground. partisans didnt really have air defense you know..
Why are you bringing NATO and the US into this and since when do they deliberately target children?
I've heard of Nuto Revelli (wasn't he the Italian army officer who became a partisan?) but I'll read up on him, thanks.
I agree that there is much hypocrisy about Israel from the US and others, just as there is from the other side in the Middle East. While I don't accept that Israel targets children I do think they are far too willing to accept civilian deaths during military actions. That said they could end the whole conflict tomorrow by bombing the whole Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank out of existence. I think the problem (if that’s the right word) is one of perception. Israel sees itself fighting a war for its survival and as such sees civilian casualties as inevitable, if regrettable. In a military context this is not uncommon; the Allies killed somewhere between 30’000 and 50’000 French civilians in the lead up to and during the D-Day invasion, mainly from bombing raids before hand.last week. they were civilians. including children.
or you want to talk about phosphorus (spelling?) bombs which are illegal but since israel is israel we all prefer to look somewhere else.
bunch of hypocrits.
I agree that there is much hypocrisy about Israel from the US and others, just as there is from the other side in the Middle East. While I don't accept that Israel targets children I do think they are far too willing to accept civilian deaths during military actions. That said they could end the whole conflict tomorrow by bombing the whole Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank out of existence. I think the problem (if that’s the right word) is one of perception. Israel sees itself fighting a war for its survival and as such sees civilian casualties as inevitable, if regrettable. In a military context this is not uncommon; the Allies killed somewhere between 30’000 and 50’000 French civilians in the lead up to and during the D-Day invasion, mainly from bombing raids before hand.
Israel is a massive arms producer and, as far as I know, sells more to the US than it buys. As for civilian deaths, they spend millions and put their troops in harm’s way to kill their targets when they could just bomb the hell out of an entire area. I don’t accept that they are blasé about civilian deaths but they do accept it as an unfortunate side effect.oh i know they accept the deaths of civilians. mostly when they are palestinians though. israel is anything but surviving. they gain terrotory, they have the backing of the US and europe (which sells them weapons!), they know they arent risking anything.
I don’t agree with that at all. Just look how long it took for the Palestinians to get a seat in the Arab League. Look at how they have been treated by Jordan and Egypt. Look at how they are treated in Jordan and Egypt, the ones are were lucky enough to get in. The Hashemites hated the Palestinians just as much as the Jews.the hypocrisy of the middle eastern countries you are referring to is just fear. if they commint fully to the Palestinian cause it would just backfire on their citizens. they would see the US (or the bully in charge atm) invading with support of half the western world.
who's surviving (barely) are the poor folks that have to act like guests in their own land.
Israel is a massive arms producer and, as far as I know, sells more to the US than it buys. As for civilian deaths, they spend millions and put their troops in harm’s way to kill their targets when they could just bomb the hell out of an entire area.
The tit for tat who's fault it is just continues the divide. I sympathise massively with Israel, I sympathise greatly with Palastine.
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