Irish passports used in Hamas killing

That will be news to the 14% of Israeli citizens who are Arab Muslims, and the 4% who are Christian (Arab and non-Arab). 82% are Jewish but of them many are secular Jews and many oppose the policies of their government. That's the thing about Israel; it's a democracy where, unlike their neighbours, people are free to voice their opinions.

I wish I could see your face if another country invaded ireland, took your stuff and confined you to a remote corner of the island.
has happened in the past and you if it were to happen again you would fight with everything you have.
partisans in italy and continental europe opposed nazis with all they had, and most of their actions were no different than the bombings we read in the news now.
problem is anyone that dares to say something against israel is accused of antisemitism.
double standards much?
 
I'm sure that's a comfort to those who had their passports stolen
What's that meant to mean? You are being lazy with the facts and that undermines your points and creates the impression that you have a pre-existing bias.
 
No bias here

I just don't think that those whose passports/identities were stolen by "whoever" are comforted by the fact that they live in a democracy

Also, what facts am I being lazy with?
 
I wish I could see your face if another country invaded ireland, took your stuff and confined you to a remote corner of the island.

Are you referring to the initial invasion and expulsion of the Jewish population hundreds of years ago or the expulsion of Arabs from present day Israel in the 1940’s (at the same time as a small population of Jews were being expelled from present day Jordan)?

If, in your opinion, the fact that the initial Jewish expulsion took place many hundreds of years ago makes their subsequent claim on the area invalid then logically you must hold equally strong pro-unionist views and support partition in the Irish historical context.
 
No bias here

I just don't think that those whose passports/identities were stolen by "whoever" are comforted by the fact that they live in a democracy

Where did I say otherwise?
You are replying to posts with answers to points that were not made. Why not go back and read your posts where you made sweeping generalisations and either back them up with something (anything will do) or withdraw them.
 
Where have I made sweeping generalisations about anything?

That's the thing about Israel; it's a democracy where, unlike their neighbours, people are free to voice their opinions.

My post about those being "comforted" is in response to this post
 
Are you referring to the initial invasion and expulsion of the Jewish population hundreds of years ago or the expulsion of Arabs from present day Israel in the 1940’s (at the same time as a small population of Jews were being expelled from present day Jordan)?

If, in your opinion, the fact that the initial Jewish expulsion took place many hundreds of years ago makes their subsequent claim on the area invalid then logically you must hold equally strong pro-unionist views and support partition in the Irish historical context.

what happened hundreds of years ago as you say it, happened without the external influence of other countries such as the US/europe etc.
truth is we didnt know what to do with them in the 40s and just chose to please the US & others that needed a stronghold in the middle east.
but tell me again whats the difference with the partisans in italy/france please.
 
what happened hundreds of years ago as you say it, happened without the external influence of other countries such as the US/europe etc.
truth is we didnt know what to do with them in the 40s and just chose to please the US & others that needed a stronghold in the middle east.
Is that why when Britain and France attempted to re-take Suez by force it was America who made them back down? You really need to do a bit of reading on the topic before you make sweeping generalisations about Western colonial policy in the post war period. I suggest something on the emergence of Arab nationalism from the early 1800's onward.
but tell me again whats the difference with the partisans in italy/france please.
Well let’s see, France was a long established and sovereign state which was invaded by another sovereign state. The same is not the case in Palestine. The sole aggressor was Germany. In the case of Israel it is far more complex with a fractured Empire being carved up, historical tensions that date back to pre-Ottoman times, massive emigration, both legal and illegal by both Arabs and Jews into Transjordan from 1880 to 1948, tribal power-plays in present day Jordan, Western guilt about the Holocaust and the cruel dispassion of a Palestinian people who have been used and abused by all of their neighbours ever since.
As for armed resistance, I don't remember reading about the French resistance deliberately blowing up busses full of school children. If you can post information to the contrary then I stand corrected. By the way Primo Levi, the famous author and Auschwitz survivor, was an Italian partisan prior to his capture.
 
Is that why when Britain and France attempted to re-take Suez by force it was America who made them back down? You really need to do a bit of reading on the topic before you make sweeping generalisations about Western colonial policy in the post war period. I suggest something on the emergence of Arab nationalism from the early 1800's onward.
Well let’s see, France was a long established and sovereign state which was invaded by another sovereign state. The same is not the case in Palestine. The sole aggressor was Germany. In the case of Israel it is far more complex with a fractured Empire being carved up, historical tensions that date back to pre-Ottoman times, massive emigration, both legal and illegal by both Arabs and Jews into Transjordan from 1880 to 1948, tribal power-plays in present day Jordan, Western guilt about the Holocaust and the cruel dispassion of a Palestinian people who have been used and abused by all of their neighbours ever since.
As for armed resistance, I don't remember reading about the French resistance deliberately blowing up busses full of school children. If you can post information to the contrary then I stand corrected. By the way Primo Levi, the famous author and Auschwitz survivor, was an Italian partisan prior to his capture.

so if its not a well established and sovereign state that its invaded we just dont give a flying fiddlers?
you say you dont remember them bombing buses full of kids, still NATO and the US are doing just that. the only difference is that they issue "apologies" after the fact.
btw, Primo Levi was a partisan, from my home town. I met him and spoke with him extensively on the subject.
he showed me the caves in which he was hiding waiting for the invading troops that were transporting weapons through the alpine passes. more than one of them blew himself up attempting to stop them.
my home town was erased from the maps. bombed then burned to the ground. partisans didnt really have air defense you know..
so yeah if it happened again, and for the extent of time its happened in palestine, I would blow up anything I could.
when you dont have a future whats left to live?

ps read up on Nuto Revelli too if you're interested
 
so if its not a well established and sovereign state that its invaded we just dont give a flying fiddlers?
Israel was created by British when they ran Palestine under mandated from the League of Nations. I am aware that the mandate was a glorified fig leaf but the substantive point is that the Ottoman Empire had collapsed and the victors of the First World War were running the shattered remains of it. Therefore there was no state called Palestine that was either invaded or partitioned. The West Bank and Gaza were taken by force by Egypt and Syria and then retaken by force by Israel. In the context of an invasion and occupation who and what are you talking about?

you say you dont remember them bombing buses full of kids, still NATO and the US are doing just that. the only difference is that they issue "apologies" after the fact.
Why are you bringing NATO and the US into this and since when do they deliberately target children?

btw, Primo Levi was a partisan, from my home town. I met him and spoke with him extensively on the subject.
he showed me the caves in which he was hiding waiting for the invading troops that were transporting weapons through the alpine passes. more than one of them blew himself up attempting to stop them.
my home town was erased from the maps. bombed then burned to the ground. partisans didnt really have air defense you know..
Well you have me there, I’m not Italian and I was still in primary school in 1987 when he died so even if I knew him I doubt I would have had that much to say to him back then.
 
I've heard of Nuto Revelli (wasn't he the Italian army officer who became a partisan?) but I'll read up on him, thanks.
 
Why are you bringing NATO and the US into this and since when do they deliberately target children?

last week. they were civilians. including children.
or you want to talk about phosphorus (spelling?) bombs which are illegal but since israel is israel we all prefer to look somewhere else.
bunch of hypocrits.
 
I've heard of Nuto Revelli (wasn't he the Italian army officer who became a partisan?) but I'll read up on him, thanks.

yeah. met him too.
my grandad was a partisan too (I think he was actually in the same groupp as Nuto Revelli.. not 100% sure though). he would have blown himself up every minute of every day during the occupation it was just very difficult to arrange to have as many germans as possible bunched up in the same place, given curfews etc.

anyway back to the passports, you know nothing is going to happen. slap on the wrist. bad israel. naughty naughty ones.
 
last week. they were civilians. including children.
or you want to talk about phosphorus (spelling?) bombs which are illegal but since israel is israel we all prefer to look somewhere else.
bunch of hypocrits.
I agree that there is much hypocrisy about Israel from the US and others, just as there is from the other side in the Middle East. While I don't accept that Israel targets children I do think they are far too willing to accept civilian deaths during military actions. That said they could end the whole conflict tomorrow by bombing the whole Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank out of existence. I think the problem (if that’s the right word) is one of perception. Israel sees itself fighting a war for its survival and as such sees civilian casualties as inevitable, if regrettable. In a military context this is not uncommon; the Allies killed somewhere between 30’000 and 50’000 French civilians in the lead up to and during the D-Day invasion, mainly from bombing raids before hand.
 
I agree that there is much hypocrisy about Israel from the US and others, just as there is from the other side in the Middle East. While I don't accept that Israel targets children I do think they are far too willing to accept civilian deaths during military actions. That said they could end the whole conflict tomorrow by bombing the whole Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank out of existence. I think the problem (if that’s the right word) is one of perception. Israel sees itself fighting a war for its survival and as such sees civilian casualties as inevitable, if regrettable. In a military context this is not uncommon; the Allies killed somewhere between 30’000 and 50’000 French civilians in the lead up to and during the D-Day invasion, mainly from bombing raids before hand.

oh i know they accept the deaths of civilians. mostly when they are palestinians though. israel is anything but surviving. they gain terrotory, they have the backing of the US and europe (which sells them weapons!), they know they arent risking anything.
the hypocrisy of the middle eastern countries you are referring to is just fear. if they commint fully to the Palestinian cause it would just backfire on their citizens. they would see the US (or the bully in charge atm) invading with support of half the western world.
who's surviving (barely) are the poor folks that have to act like guests in their own land.
 
oh i know they accept the deaths of civilians. mostly when they are palestinians though. israel is anything but surviving. they gain terrotory, they have the backing of the US and europe (which sells them weapons!), they know they arent risking anything.
Israel is a massive arms producer and, as far as I know, sells more to the US than it buys. As for civilian deaths, they spend millions and put their troops in harm’s way to kill their targets when they could just bomb the hell out of an entire area. I don’t accept that they are blasé about civilian deaths but they do accept it as an unfortunate side effect.

the hypocrisy of the middle eastern countries you are referring to is just fear. if they commint fully to the Palestinian cause it would just backfire on their citizens. they would see the US (or the bully in charge atm) invading with support of half the western world.
who's surviving (barely) are the poor folks that have to act like guests in their own land.
I don’t agree with that at all. Just look how long it took for the Palestinians to get a seat in the Arab League. Look at how they have been treated by Jordan and Egypt. Look at how they are treated in Jordan and Egypt, the ones are were lucky enough to get in. The Hashemites hated the Palestinians just as much as the Jews.
 
Israel is a massive arms producer and, as far as I know, sells more to the US than it buys. As for civilian deaths, they spend millions and put their troops in harm’s way to kill their targets when they could just bomb the hell out of an entire area.

not without raising serious questions from the international community!
its better to kill them slowly without raising much questions and accusing anyone that questions their methods of being antisemitic.

but of course you are right and know better.

interesting reading
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/IsraelWeaponsManuIndus.html

"The export markets open to Israel are frequently among the world's most unsavory; indeed, to be off limits to the superpowers they often are located inside the very gates of hell. Already under international censure for its oppression of the Palestinians in the territories it occupies, Israel's dealings with the scum of the world's tyrants-including the white clique in South Africa, Somoza of Nicaragua, Gen. Pinochet of Chile, Marcos of the Philippines, Duvalier of Haiti, Mobutu of Zaire, the allegedly cannibalistic Bokassa of the Central African Republic-invariably result in its further exclusion from more "respectable" circles. "A person who sleeps with dogs shouldn't be surprised to find himself covered with fleas," comments the military correspondent for Israel's major daily newspaper."

Chosen people my *** !
 
The only nailed on guaranteed thing about the Middle East is that if you claim to understand it and claim that one side is more at fault than another then you really don't understand it at all.

It isn't simple. Both sides have been used as pawns by others. Both sides have suffered attrocities historically and recently. Both sides ignore and take liberties with human rights and treaties. Both sides are held to ransom and forced to live in fear by a small minority of extremists in their ranks who perpetuate the hate and violence for their own needs and gains. Both sides are largely populated a majority of people who are sick of the violence and fear and just want peace. Both sides have a large majority of people who see the solution and compromise but are forced into a war by their government or by their "terrorist" leaders.

The tit for tat who's fault it is just continues the divide. I sympathise massively with Israel, I sympathise greatly with Palastine.
 
The tit for tat who's fault it is just continues the divide. I sympathise massively with Israel, I sympathise greatly with Palastine.

So are you sympathising differently? Does that mean you're taking sides?;)
 
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