Defence forces to get 28.5% pay rise

[Itchy]

Purple, firstly I think you have misinterpreted my post and, secondly, its innocuous to you but there is actually a serious discussion to be had around these issues. Unfortunately, the level of discussion has descended into the comments thread on thejournal or a politics.ie thread, we even have some Tolstoy poetry.

Its important for people to have a real and solid discussion around security issues and while its very difficult to change some peoples perception bias, I personally hope that there are some readers of the thread that will recognise some of the inane arguments used to do down what is, if you actually see the wood for the trees, is a good, quality and effective organisation that is being damaged and I think we will have to pay for it in the long run. I think the pay issue is a large contributor to that and the information presented by the OP is not in context so its no harm pointing that out even though the real motivation was to look for a cheap cut off them. Conor Lally is an excellent security analyst, I would really recommend you read his stuff for some knowledge in this area. Hes not a frequent IR analyst though.

Its an internet forum after all, if you cant call out a few talking heads whats the point?!

 

[cremeegg]

Unfortunately, the level of discussion has descended into the comments thread on thejournal or a politics.ie thread, we even have some Tolstoy poetry.

The quote was from Leo Tolstoy the novelist. The poet was Aleksey, his cousin.

Its important for people to have a real and solid discussion around security issues

Sure. Why not start your own thread about security issues. I started this one about defence forces pay.

a good, quality and effective organisation

Have you any evidence or argument to support this or is it just a "perception bias"

we will have to pay for it in the long run.

I am sure you are right there.

real motivation was to look for a cheap cut off them.

Taxpayers will have to fork out for a 28.5% pay rise, so hardly cheap

Its an internet forum after all, if you cant call out a few talking heads whats the point?!

Well if you can't argue your corner like the rest of us, what indeed is the point.

 

[monagt]

Does anyone on this thread earn €21k or less and on fixed term contract?

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Does anyone on this thread earn €21k or less and on fixed term contract?

I did once...

 

[monagt]

I did once...

On a fixed term contract?
I believe that the contract may not be renewed after the 5 or 8 years (Don't know actual durations) unlike other public service.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

On a fixed term contract?
I believe that the contract may not be renewed after the 5 or 8 years (Don't know actual durations) unlike other public service.

Yes; I was on a 3.5 year fixed term contract and paid buttons when I was a trainee chartered accountant.

 

[Itchy]

The quote was from Leo Tolstoy the novelist. The poet was Aleksey, his cousin.

The way you used it was poetic!

Sure. Why not start your own thread about security issues. I started this one about defence forces pay.

Pay IS a security issue. That's why the Guards got their way. I just don't think thats what the DF should have to do but there does not seem to be any other way that works?

Have you any evidence or argument to support this or is it just a "perception bias"

I'll see if I can dig up an IT headline for you

I am sure you are right there.

I think so

Taxpayers will have to fork out for a 28.5% pay rise, so hardly cheap

Its a bargain for the taxpayer! Credit to DPER where its due.

Isn't it interesting that every other PS union are happy the fact that the DF are getting 28.5%? I mean they haven't even used it as leverage to increase their own take. Their members must be in awe of the top class representation of PDFORRA.

Well if you can't argue your corner like the rest of us, what indeed is the point.

Tolstoy isn't an argument!

 

[cremeegg]

Some good news at last from the defence forces. From a recent Irish Independent report

PDFORRA revealed today that some 2,840 members left the Defence Forces in the last five years – that’s over 30% of the total enlisted personnel.

Over 1,000 members purchased their discharge – paying a sum of €300 – in those five years, the association said.

Men being forced into soldering to earn a living is as distressing as women being forced into prostitution. It is wonderful to see that the improving economic situation is allowing so many to escape.

 

[Purple]

Men being forced into soldering to earn a living is as distressing as women being forced into prostitution. It is wonderful to see that the improving economic situation is allowing so many to escape.

LOL

We need to look at the our defense and security needs as a country. That includes a "Home Office" style department which looks after policing and prisons and a intelligence service which reports to the department of the Taoiseach. I see no need for a conventional army, a proper Civil Defense would make more sense and I certainly see no need for a Navy; a Coast Guard would make much more sense and would be eligible for EU funding.

 

[cremeegg]

We need to look at the our defense and security needs as a country.

Absolutely.

I see no need for a conventional army, a proper Civil Defense would make more sense and I certainly see no need for a Navy; a Coast Guard would make much more sense and would be eligible for EU funding.

Agreed absolutely.

It is nice (not) to see that Leo has done the exact opposite.

Ireland has joined Pesco, the EUs new mini-nato, without any discussion and committing to increased defence expenditure. The really depressing thing is that FF are behind him on this.

 

[Itchy]

Agreed absolutely.

The adults have a different opinion obviously.

PESCO will be an excellent opportunity for our DF for capability development and allow Ireland to contribute and participate in R&D, in line with its interests. Some of the initial projects that Ireland will be involved in will be Cyber security, Maritime surveillance, EU Military Training and disaster relief. Ireland cannot be compelled to cooperate in any area under PESCO. If Ireland wishes to participate in any area, it will notify the Council of the EU who will vote to approve us joining. Once we join we will have binding obligations to meet the terms of that particular area. If Ireland would like to withdraw from a particular project, they notify the Council of the EU and they vote to approve. Our Security and Defence policy will drive our participation not the other way around. Its an enhaced cooperation measure like any other (EMU, Schengen etc.). I havent seen anywhere that our Defence spending will increase as a result of this measure. Certainly, the 3 year spending forecast through 2019 published by DPER shows a flat projection of defence spending (€847m), in real terms a decrease.

While a positive move for Ireland, any investment made cannot be capitalised on in the current environment of self-defeating and culturally ruinous HR policies. That is the real waste of resources.

Maybe the new EU army will offer minimum wage?

 

[Purple]

The adults have a different opinion obviously.

Now now, no need to be rude.

PESCO will be an excellent opportunity for our DF for capability development and allow Ireland to contribute and participate in R&D, in line with its interests. Some of the initial projects that Ireland will be involved in will be Cyber security, Maritime surveillance, EU Military Training and disaster relief. Ireland cannot be compelled to cooperate in any area under PESCO. If Ireland wishes to participate in any area, it will notify the Council of the EU who will vote to approve us joining. Once we join we will have binding obligations to meet the terms of that particular area. If Ireland would like to withdraw from a particular project, they notify the Council of the EU and they vote to approve. Our Security and Defence policy will drive our participation not the other way around. Its an enhaced cooperation measure like any other (EMU, Schengen etc.). I havent seen anywhere that our Defence spending will increase as a result of this measure. Certainly, the 3 year spending forecast through 2019 published by DPER shows a flat projection of defence spending (€847m), in real terms a decrease.

I agree, though I'd question what R&D we can offer but if we have an Army it should engage with our neighbours.

While a positive move for Ireland, any investment made cannot be capitalised on in the current environment of self-defeating and culturally ruinous HR policies. That is the real waste of resources.

It is a real waste of resources. I'm still of the opinion we should get rid of it but if we want an Army it should be a proper one.

Maybe the new EU army will offer minimum wage?

The basic salary for a private (excluding allowances, pension and perks) is €410 a week or €10.50 an hour based on a 39 hour week so I don't think they would like to take a pay cut.

 

[Leo]

though I'd question what R&D we can offer

A few Irish companies already operate in this space, with some contracting directly to the US military for R&D in ares such as software, bio-tech, optics, X-Ray and medical devices.

 

[Purple]

A few Irish companies already operate in this space, with some contracting directly to the US military for R&D in ares such as software, bio-tech, optics, X-Ray and medical devices.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't see too much scope for Ireland to get involved with communal projects considering how many other EU countries have significant defense sectors (France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.).

 

[Leo]

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't see too much scope for Ireland to get involved with communal projects considering how many other EU countries have significant defense sectors (France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.).

Ah yeah, we're a long way off participating in the likes of Euro fighter projects, but more access to even smaller components of such projects would be welcome.

 

[Itchy]

It is a real waste of resources. I'm still of the opinion we should get rid of it but if we want an Army it should be a proper one.

Exactly and it goes for any public good. If we get rid, it has to be based on sound reasoning because it cannot be restored easily. If we keep, it has to be resourced to achieve what it is tasked to do.

In my view, the value and worth we have for our society is reflected by how we treat the weakest in it. Similarly, the value and worth we have for our democracy is reflected by how we treat those we task to protect it.

The basic salary for a private (excluding allowances, pension and perks) is €410 a week or €10.50 an hour based on a 39 hour week so I don't think they would like to take a pay cut.

Assumption => "39 hour week"

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't see too much scope for Ireland to get involved with communal projects considering how many other EU countries have significant defense sectors (France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.).

Ah yeah, we're a long way off participating in the likes of Euro fighter projects, but more access to even smaller components of such projects would be welcome.

Not necessarily. Any larger scale manufacturer has tiered levels of suppliers e.g. Airbus don't manufacture the aircraft's weather radar or the nose cone it goes in but they do attach it to the aircraft. So we will never have a "defence industry" but Irish-owned, dual-use technology can be valuable. Timoney based in Navan currently manufacture suspension systems and do R&D in the land systems category. We have R&D and manufacturing technology in the field of Aircraft composites in the west of Ireland while there is maritime R&D going on in Cork and a shipbuilding company SafeHaven Marine operating in this space. Not to mention cyber security, medical training etc. There is huge potential for high-value added work to come to Ireland, as a result of our involvement in this programme. Thats just the commercial element of it.

 

[Purple]

Assumption => "39 hour week"

What's their average working week over a year? I would be very surprised if it's more than 39 hours.

Not necessarily. Any larger scale manufacturer has tiered levels of suppliers e.g. Airbus don't manufacture the aircraft's weather radar or the nose cone it goes in but they do attach it to the aircraft. So we will never have a "defence industry" but Irish-owned, dual-use technology can be valuable. Timoney based in Navan currently manufacture suspension systems and do R&D in the land systems category. We have R&D and manufacturing technology in the field of Aircraft composites in the west of Ireland while there is maritime R&D going on in Cork and a shipbuilding company SafeHaven Marine operating in this space. Not to mention cyber security, medical training etc. There is huge potential for high-value added work to come to Ireland, as a result of our involvement in this programme. Thats just the commercial element of it.

What extra access will be get? At the moment we are struggling to supply tier 1 and 2 suppliers to the aerospace primes and most of that is in the civilian market. Will this really make a difference?
I know that Timoney do some work in the defense sector but most of their work is in civilian applications. Éire Composites are working away in Galway but again that is mostly civilian applications where, in reality, everything starts with Bombardier in Belfast. I don't know much about SafeHaven Marine other than that they make really cool looking boats.

 

[cremeegg]

It seems that after taking millions from the taxpayer in the great Army Deafness gravy train, our heroic defenders have a new wheeze.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...iers-blame-drug-for-destroyed-lives-1.3612484

I wonder how much this will cost us.

 

[Purple]

It seems that after taking millions from the taxpayer in the great Army Deafness gravy train, our heroic defenders have a new wheeze.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...iers-blame-drug-for-destroyed-lives-1.3612484

I wonder how much this will cost us.

...and if you complain to the army it just falls on deaf ears.

 

[TheBigShort]

It seems that after taking millions from the taxpayer in the great Army Deafness gravy train, our heroic defenders have a new wheeze.

Yeh, because people who could have protective hearing equipment but weren't given it shouldn't be compensated for loss of hearing through their employers negligence?

I wonder how much this will cost us.

Did you actually read the article? The drug was taken off the market in 2016. Other armed forces around the world stopped administering it. It continues to be given to Irish soldiers abroad. It has links to hallucinations and possibly sucicide.

Whatever it costs the State I doubt if you will need to pay one extra cent. It certainly wont cost anymore than it has cost its victims.