Defence forces to get 28.5% pay rise

[cremeegg]

It seems that some areas of the public sector face no pay issues.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...ffort-to-stop-defence-forces-exodus-1.3243221

Either PDFORRA is the greatest TU ever or the government is expecting an invasion.

Makes a bit of a nonsense of all the talk of fiscal space.

 

[Purple]

Marked forces; if they can't get or keep the right people at the current rates then they need to pay more. Just as long as it is targeted.

 

[cremeegg]

Whats the market in soldiers. What do we need them for ? Who are we competing against to recruit soldiers, Mike Hoare ?

Its surprising that they can target 3 star privates, whatever they maybe, for pay rises but they cannot target nurses.

 

[Purple]

They are losing officers and specialists, particularly in the intelligence sector.
Those are the people which require extensive training and so need to be retained.

 

[Itchy]

There are no new pay measures for the DF outside the established pay talks. In fact, in comparison to other uniformed services members of our DF have lost ground; see here. The figures you are looking at (28.5%) are pre-LRA entry grade and post-LRA 1st point on the scale after completion of training.

The DF are the lowest paid of the entire public service. Whats more interesting is the fact that the Dept. have complete power over the pay and conditions of our forces without fear of recourse, yet their is no shame at the existence of the groups like the WPDF. I don't know if there are any other organisations whose loyalty to the state is more absolute than the DF, but it is interesting that the Taoiseach is looking to wield the same kind of power of other providers of "essential services" ATC, etc.

 

[cremeegg]

I don't know if there are any other organisations whose loyalty to the state is more absolute than the DF,

Are you serious or is that a joke ? No one has systematically exploited the Irish taxpayer more effectively than members of the defence forces.

Army deafness claims.

"claims brought by plaintiffs that they had never been issued with protection could not be disproven as there were no specific records kept for earplugs issued to each soldier"

"the B case with little actual impairment, was heard in the High Court and an award of £45,000 was made"

"the N case, the claimant received £24,720, notwithstanding the fact that the presiding judge found that the individual had persevered with a claim for loss of hearing that, on relatively clear evidential grounds, was unsustainable."

All the above quotes from the then Minister of Defence Michael Smith see Dail record

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1998050600018?opendocument&highlight=army deafness Michael Smith

 

[Jim2007]

Are you serious or is that a joke ? No one has systematically exploited the Irish taxpayer more effectively than members of the defence forces.

Disgraceful! Would you be willing to join a naval boarding party at night on a ship that is resisting you, throwing brick, fish hooks etc down on you for their wages? Everyday Irish men and Irish women put their lives at risk for this country, they deserve our thanks and respect, not this penny-pinching nonsense.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Disgraceful! Would you be willing to join a naval boarding party at night on a ship that is resisting you, throwing brick, fish hooks etc down on you for their wages? Everyday Irish men and Irish women put their lives at risk for this country, they deserve our thanks and respect, not this penny-pinching nonsense.

You make it sound like we live in Somalia, rather than a neutral republic in Western Europe.

 

[odyssey06]

Disgraceful! Would you be willing to join a naval boarding party at night on a ship that is resisting you, throwing brick, fish hooks etc down on you for their wages? Everyday Irish men and Irish women put their lives at risk for this country, they deserve our thanks and respect, not this penny-pinching nonsense.

I'm not sure if I'd do it for any wages... probably we wouldn't want people signing up to the Defence Forces for remuneration package alone. What are they people with the fish hooks being paid???
I'm sure Defence Forces staff could earn more working for Blackwater or some shadowy mercenary group... I'm not sure that applies to accountants or IT staff.
They might get shot at a bit more and be expected to do a bit more shooting than they do today though.

If people are leaving because of the pay, essential people who have been trained at great expense... well then obviously something has to give and that needs to be addressed.

But I don't think the state can put a monetary value to encourage someone to risk their life in service of their country. That's about a sense of duty.

 

[cremeegg]

Everyday Irish men and Irish women put their lives at risk for this country.

Can you provide some examples please. Of risk in a military sense. Beyond the everyday risk we all face from the usual hazards, traffic accidents, crime etc. Beyond the risk inherent in the wrong type of ear muffs. Of risk faced for the country.

 

[michaelm]

I'm not sure if I'd do it for any wages... probably we wouldn't want people signing up to the Defence Forces for remuneration package alone.

Me neither. Irish Defence Forces are underfunded and often sent on misadventures by overeager ministers. As we're non-aligned we shouldn't be wearing EUFOR hats abroad (only UN). Continued use of Lariam is another black mark. Morale must be terrible. The pay is poor and should be improved.

 

[Firefly]

The Government had already committed earlier this year to pay restoration for the Defence Forces

It seems like the pay rises under benchmarking were a good thing!!

I can see an orderly line forming for others in the PS now. "Where's my restoration?".

Good news for us though, herself might be bringing home a few more bob

 

[Purple]

Can you provide some examples please. Of risk in a military sense. Beyond the everyday risk we all face from the usual hazards, traffic accidents, crime etc. Beyond the risk inherent in the wrong type of ear muffs. Of risk faced for the country.

Lol

17,000 sets of ear muffs.

 

[Purple]

While the Irish Defense Forces are probably under-paid and under-funded it is laughable to suggest they are putting their lives at risk for this country on a daily basis. It is statistically one of the safest jobs in the country.

 

[monagt]

While the Irish Defense Forces are probably under-paid and under-funded it is laughable to suggest they are putting their lives at risk for this country on a daily basis. It is statistically one of the safest jobs in the country.

Not involved in Defence Forces but from 2015 Stats (Journal.ie Dec 29th 2015)

"The Defence Forces has released its stats for army operations over the past year, revealing the explosive ordnance disposal team were called out 145 times.
Bomb disposal comes under the army’s remit for providing aid to civil powers.
Other examples from this year include:

• 130 prisoner escorts
• 11 explosives escorts
• 260 personnel were involved in the security operation for the royal visit in May"

Then there is: http://www.military.ie/overseas/ where they are in harms way + the Med rescue + Sea Rescue

There is probably more but they are the last line of Gov Support if Civil authorities overwhelmed.

Maybe there is more

 

[Purple]

I'm not saying they don't do anything but I think 2011 was the last time one was killed in a weapons exchange (I think it was a round from a Israeli artillery piece)? Since the 1960's the most common cause of death while on duty has been car crash. Fishing, farming and construction are much more dangerous occupations.

 

[SMAEL17]

Bomb disposal is the only truly risky operation, and even at that I'm sure that most callouts were to science rooms in schools, and bomb disposal is probably only a handful of army personnel.

I see the Irish Army as grown men playing around in the hills, spinning up and down the road, playing with old guns in the Curragh, jumping out of planes pretending to be training in case we have to invade a country in 1950, and generally enjoying walking around in the uniform. Every now and then they have to work for a few months in a row.

This is what they signed up for and this is what they're getting - Stop complaining and get on with it, or leave.

 

[Purple]

Bomb disposal is the only truly risky operation, and even at that I'm sure that most callouts were to science rooms in schools, and bomb disposal is probably only a handful of army personnel.

I see the Irish Army as grown men playing around in the hills, spinning up and down the road, playing with old guns in the Curragh, jumping out of planes pretending to be training in case we have to invade a country in 1950, and generally enjoying walking around in the uniform. Every now and then they have to work for a few months in a row.

This is what they signed up for and this is what they're getting - Stop complaining and get on with it, or leave.

There is an issue with retention in areas like military intelligence. Personally I think we should have a Coast Guard rather than a Navy (and we'd get EU funding for that). The Air Corp could be part of that so no need for a Army Air Corp. We should have a State Intelligence Service which would be make up of some current members of the Gardai, the Army and possibly the Department of Justice. The Ranger Wing could be under their control.
If a country like Costa Rica, the same size as us but sandwiched between some unstable neighbours, can get by without an Army I don't see why we need one. The heart says yes, the head says no.

 

[cremeegg]

The heart says yes, the head says no.

I am not sure which you mean by the heart and the head.

Logically I agree that the army should be abolished with a transfer of some elements as you outline.

Emotionally, I would be proud of the country if we had the courage to forgo the illusory safety of a "defence" force. It would put us in a much stronger position to suggest that other countries should reduce their arms spending.

 

[Itchy]

Are you serious or is that a joke ? No one has systematically exploited the Irish taxpayer more effectively than members of the defence forces.

I think that is an exceptionally unfair and disingenuous comment. I think any fair minded person would agree that your claim is wholly untrue and lacks any credible evidence. Comments from a Minister in the Dail without the context are just that. In the case of Army Deafness, there was significant lapse in the provision of safety equipment that resulted in widespread damages. All awards were made by the judiciary or settlements by the State Claims Agency. If there was false claims, your issues is with them. To suggest that there was an organisational wide effort to systematically exploit the taxpayer is just simply wrong.

The thread is about pay and your misunderstanding of the facts behind a news article, lets not descend into wild conspiracy theories.

Can you provide some examples please. Of risk in a military sense. Beyond the everyday risk we all face from the usual hazards, traffic accidents, crime etc. Beyond the risk inherent in the wrong type of ear muffs. Of risk faced for the country.

Again, the thread is about pay. There is no answer to this line of questioning. There is no equating risk (in the security sense) to reward in the PS, so what has this got to do with anything? How much risk do you think is satisfactory? Where do they need to go to justify what you think they are worth? This is not how policy is made. If you google your own question you may be able to satisfy your thirst. For further reading you might be interested in this book by Lt. Col. Dan Harvey http://irishacademicpress.ie/product/into-action-irish-peacekeepers-under-fire-1960-2014/

Me neither. Irish Defence Forces are underfunded and often sent on misadventures by overeager ministers. As we're non-aligned we shouldn't be wearing EUFOR hats abroad (only UN). Continued use of Lariam is another black mark. Morale must be terrible. The pay is poor and should be improved.

Whatever your views on security policy, the underlying point is highlighted here. The DF do what they are told to do by the Gov. They do not choose to go to particular places, they do not choose to take Lariam, they are TOLD to. Having that absolute power and control requires you to exercise it responsibly and in the area of pay, the Dept. are currently, systematically exploiting every single member of the DF.