What, they can't organise a flight?
Defence forces to get 28.5% pay rise
- Thread starter cremeegg
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Good job they can't organise a fight,
TheBigShort
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Im sure they can.
What's the allegation in relation to compromise of the comms system?
TheBigShort
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There is none that im aware of. Im just suggesting that an investigation as to what has happened has been called for, so before jumping to conclusions as to whose head should be on the block, it may emerge that communications systems or system processes are simply inadequate for dealing with the task in hand.
It may have something to do with such systems being unsuitable, or outdated, for use in militarized zones, or it perhaps it was a systems failure waiting to happen.
Systems failures happen all the time in all sorts of organisations.
I think you may be over complicating it, and you seem to have jumped to a conclusion of them being under-equipped for some reason. It's being stated it was a 'bureaucratic error', and that someone filled in the wrong operation name on the paperwork submitted to the Lebanese authorities required to obtain the transit visa. Visa rejected so paperwork had to be completed again.
TheBigShort
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I haven't jumped to any conclusion, thats my point. I dont know if its a clerical error, senior management error, Ministerial error, IT error, or a scam to extract more money from the taxpayer.
If what is being reported is true, it appears to be a clerical error. If its a clerical error, then the systems applied need to be reviewed to identify the flaw in the system that allowed the error to occur.
If that is the case, we are a long way from "another mini compo arranged for our heroes" as was suggested by another poster.
Even before the reason was released, this was always most likely to be clerical error, but you felt it more plausible that their communications systems were outdated or had been compromised. That's right up with the moon landing was faked type fabrication.
The flaw was a diplomat filling in the wrong name on the paperwork, nothing to do with military communications systems.
They're already getting a compo payment, and the families are wheeling their 'distraught' children out in front of the media looking for more, likening it to Christmas being cancelled.
TheBigShort
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I didn't think it more plausible, I merely suggested it as a possibility. You're rabbit paws are obviously grinding for a good digging.
Yep, great, im with you all the way. It wasnt a communications systems error (I merely suggested it may have been, hence not jumping to conclusions before an investigation is carried out). Its not a clerical error, instead its a diplomat error.
We are still along way from "another mini compo arranged for our heroes", arent we?
Perhaps Im wrong, perhaps this is a conspiracy between the diplomat and the families to extract compo from the taxpayer?
No, just pointing out your predilection to blame lack of government funding ahead of the far more obvious cause. You even repeated this as a likely cause without suggesting much in the way of alternatives.
It's still a clerical error, we're a long way removed from the times when the definition of clerical error only applied to such mistakes when made by clerks or secretaries.
The commitment to payment of compo, and families demanding more would suggest the opposite.
That's an even longer shot than the military communications system being compromised and not fit for purpose.
TheBigShort
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I didn't blame anything or anyone. Quite clearly I suggested that an investigation was to occur before jumping to conclusions.
The predilection of some posters to blame soldiers for receiving compensation for grievances experienced seems to have passed you by.
No it doesn't. The soldiers have been away from their families on duty. Obviously looking forward to returning home, and in particular those with small children, being told that they will have to wait another two weeks is a genuine source of grievance.
Whats the going rate if an airline cancels or delays a flight that anyone is booked on?
http://www.aviationreg.ie/air-passenger-rights/delay.210.html
Presumably anyone affected by flight cancellations or delays will seek their compensation?
Reading the above, a flight only has to be delayed 3 hrs before the compo claims start kicking in. The longer the delays the greater the compo.
The rates of compensation for private citizens exceed those of public sector workers in the army. In fact, the soldiers are getting a pittance compared to what a private citizen, who books a flight with a private airline would get for a two week delay.
But im guessing you are going to tell me that private citizens dont claim compensation for delays to their flights against those who are charged with providing those flights?
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If you had left it there it would be one thing, but you went into detail over two posts suggesting military communications systems were underfunded and were inadequate, had been compromised or both.
It hasn't, I just didn't comment on it.
So you are arguing that a government commitment to pay €1,000 compensation per person is somehow not compensation?
No, but it makes no sense to conflate the rights afforded to a private citizen to compensation when a commercial entity fails to deliver as per the terms and conditions of a legal contract contract to that of serving military when issues such as this arise. Those signing up for service agree to the terms of such service, and the limitations they impose on a number of freedoms and entitlements enjoyed by private citizens. So consumer protection for flight delays are of no relevance.
TheBigShort
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No I didn't. I suggested that IT communications failure may be a cause, along with other posters suggesting that it is a compensation scam or that someone short be sacked.
Not at all. It is compensation.
When a State entity fails to deliver as per the terms and conditions of a legal contract ( for ease of reference can we agree that the terms of the soldiers deployment to Golan Heights was breached, resulting in an extra two weeks service away from home?).
Those signing up for service agree to the terms of such service (I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that the terms here - six months deployment to Golan Heights has been breached).
Soldiers may sign up to terms that limit their freedoms and entitlements otherwise enjoyed by private citizens. All the more reason that they are adequately compensated when those terms are broken.
Realistically, we should be grateful that these soldiers have signed up to such limitations. If they had the same rights and entitlements as private citizens do when their flights are delayed or cancelled the compensation package would be a lot higher.
It can occasionally accepted as human error when it's a figure of authority making the mistake, just not someone on the lower rungs.
What in the Defence acts or individual contracts as signed by these soldiers states that these deployments are for 6 months and only 6 months? Not one of those complaining have stated the t&cs of their contract were breached in any way. It would make no sense for the Defence Forces tie themselves to such limitations via t&cs when you hear stories of what some of these soldiers can face on assignment.
TheBigShort
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?? But it was human error according to Leo??
It was a clerical error.
What it wasn't, was a scam or "another mini compo arranged for our heroes".
It shouldn't be hard to agree that much, should it?
TheBigShort
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Dont be daft. The limitations are not set in legislation. They are set in terms of service for UNDOF.
Irish commits to providing peace-keepers. Depending on when, how, where etc, Ireland commits to a certain amount of troops.
Those troops will be told in advance for how long they will be redeployed. Thats why their families had an expectation of their arrival home - the length of service in Golan was agreed. As this infantry arrives home, another infantry will replace them - these troops will know in advance how long this foreign tour of duty is to last.
Do you seriously think that soldiers head off to militarized zones without their families knowing beforehand how long they will be away?
Seriously, you should read up on some of what they do abroad, where they go, what they have to do before bemoaning any compensation they might get
https://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0830/640292-golan-heights/
There's a thought.
Contract and working conditions aren't set in legislation? Seriously?
There are no such terms under UNDOF. Deployments under UN missions are agreed between the defence forces and the UN, there are no terms under these agreements that tie the deployments of individual soldiers or rotations to fixed dates or duration. The terms applying to Irish soldiers are those in their contracts of employment.
In general, they are told the expected return dates, but their terms are in line with standard military practice in that when on active deployment, the situation is fluid and many things can and do change.
I know very well what they do, our last two heads of security are former officers with long service histories and lots of stories to tell, and I know a couple of others who have done multiple UN stints.
Where did I bemoan this compensation?
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