Airport - Yes, you would not have seen them
Dail - Yes, you would not have seen them.
Money Convoys - Yes would not have seen them, you probably have seen normal cash transfers
Defence forces to get 28.5% pay rise
- Thread starter cremeegg
- Start date
- Status
Airport - Yes, you would not have seen them
Dail - Yes, you would not have seen them.
Money Convoys - Yes would not have seen them, you probably have seen normal cash transfers
Are you sure they are at the Airport? I was told by someone working there that they are not on site as a matter of course.
Next? How many Irish troops have been killed in combat in the last 50 years? The people who build houses are more at risk. I'm not saying they are well paid. I'm not saying that they are unskilled. I'm not saying they don't do a good job. I am saying that the argument that they are putting their lives at rick for the security of the State is, by any realistic empirical measure, nonsense.
You're a great man for the hyperbole Leper!
In most countries a Coast Guard does what our Navy does. and locked Switzerland and Austria have bigger Navy's than us. Our army is no realistic deterrent from attack by any force which would realistically attack us. Why do we have it? What is it for?
As I said, my heart says yes; they have distinguished themselves all over the world with the UN, but my head says no; we could carry out the same State security function better by integrating them into the police and a State intelligence service.
Combat killed/realistic deterrent........ This is a hard one to answer so I will leave it.
The people who build houses are more at risk - no builder is ever asked to deliberately put themselves in harm's way.
They exist as an arm of the state and to support civil authorities when needed.
The Police are a civil force.......... different in many ways from an Army, different training, different attitudes to situations.
Gordon Gekko
Registered User
- Messages
- 7,849
Yet another sacred cow in this great country of ours.
The reality is Texas Hold'em in the barracks and pints in Blackbird/The Rathmines Inn.
But the apologists would have us believe that they're fighting Al Qaeda in the Afghani caves.
The reality is Texas Hold'em in the barracks and pints in Blackbird/The Rathmines Inn.
But the apologists would have us believe that they're fighting Al Qaeda in the Afghani caves.
It's not a hard one to answer. There have been less than half a dozen.
So what? Gardai are, Fire crews are, Coast Guards are. They are far more likely to be injured or die in the line of duty.
Yes. So what?
Agreed. Again, so what?
Maybe in modern communication & travel times they have been moved away though I doubt it.
The 7/24/365 Ranger Wing in the Curragh is only 12 mins away and I am sure there are more based in Dublin.
Use your words.
Gordon Gekko
Registered User
- Messages
- 7,849
In order to foster Irish/Emariti relations, perhaps the Army could undertake a cultural exchange programme with the Abu Dhabi Indigenous Blue Movie Appreciation Society?
They might get ideas on how to fill their day and where to put all their money...
They might get ideas on how to fill their day and where to put all their money...
Nah - I'm speechless
Is this true or did you just make it up ? I consider it most unlikely to be true, but I am open to becoming better informed, if of course you didn't just make it up.
The army deafness debacle cost the taxpayer in excess of €300m http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/army-deafness-saga-finally-nears-an-end-26625717.html.
I have no idea what the average weekly litigation payout of each maternity Consultant is.
If Leper is right then it's over €300 million or €15.6 billion a year. Jasus lads, that's where all the money is going! Let's sort that one out and problem solved for Ireland Inc.!
Obviously we need some level of Defense force. The point is that conditions are poor and they can't retain staff.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ps-are-effectively-working-9to5-35544502.html
The numbers don't look that bad to me. It seems the issue is in the specific specialist roles that are leaving.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ps-are-effectively-working-9to5-35544502.html
The numbers don't look that bad to me. It seems the issue is in the specific specialist roles that are leaving.
Yes, and if we have defense forces we should at least make sure that they are fit for purpose for the real threats that we face. We are not going to be invaded but we do need a strong intelligence and counter-terrorist service (though personally I'd rather see that as a entity in itself taking some of the duties of the Gardai and the army).
I have always thought Tolstoy had it right on armies. From War and Peace.
“According to the biblical tradition the absence of work -- idleness -- was a condition of the first man's state of blessedness before the Fall. The love of idleness has been preserved in fallen man, but now a heavy curse lies upon him, not only because we have to earn our bread by the sweat of our brow, but also because our sense of morality will not allow us to be both idle and at ease. Whenever we are idle a secret voice keeps telling us to feel guilty. If man could discover a state in which he could be idle and still feel useful and on the path of duty, he would have regained one aspect of that primitive state of blessedness. And there is one such state of enforced and irreproachable idleness enjoyed by an entire class of men -- the military class. It is this state of enforced and irreproachable idleness that forms the chief attraction of military service, and it always will.”
“According to the biblical tradition the absence of work -- idleness -- was a condition of the first man's state of blessedness before the Fall. The love of idleness has been preserved in fallen man, but now a heavy curse lies upon him, not only because we have to earn our bread by the sweat of our brow, but also because our sense of morality will not allow us to be both idle and at ease. Whenever we are idle a secret voice keeps telling us to feel guilty. If man could discover a state in which he could be idle and still feel useful and on the path of duty, he would have regained one aspect of that primitive state of blessedness. And there is one such state of enforced and irreproachable idleness enjoyed by an entire class of men -- the military class. It is this state of enforced and irreproachable idleness that forms the chief attraction of military service, and it always will.”
If you didn't have to look that up then I'm very impressed!
What does it matter how many are killed in Combat? How many people need to die and in what circumstance that will justify their worth to you? And what has it got to do with justifying fair treatment in the negotiation of pay?
In 2003 Sgt. Derek Mooney (a member of the Army Ranger Wing) died in a road crash when his vehicle overturned in Liberia due to bad roads. Some time later, following the accident the ARW conducted an operation to rescue 35 hostages who were being beaten and raped by Government of Liberia forces. So if he had died in alternate circumstances he would have earned some respect? How would you have liked him to die? Give me a break. He was there, doing the job he signed up for and lost his life for it.
Empirical evidence (All of this is meaningless in the pay discussion, but just to indulge the free flowing arrogance):
The DF and the Gardai have been in existence roughly the same length of time, since the foundation of the state. The Garda Roll of Honour has 88 names on it with Garda Tony Golden being the latest and the first entry being made in 1922. The DF Roll of Honour has 86 names on it, with the first name entered on it in 1960. So statistically, the DF have lost the same amount of people in the half the time, so you could say its twice as dangerous as being a Garda.
The UN mission in Lebanon has been in existence for 39 years. In that time there have been over 250 fatalities. 47 Irish families have lost a loved one, more than any other nation that has contributed. That is 19% of all fatalities. Ireland contribute over 300 of the 9000 troops to that mission or 3% of all troops. A disproportionate price? On average the mission in UNIFIL loses 6.4 soldiers per year (this is just the average, most events have multiple casualties). Ireland should suffer 19% of those so Ireland is due to lose 1.2 soldiers per year on average. So if you are one of the 600 who visit Lebanon each year??
None of this matters other than in the context of a know nothing spouting ill-informed, generic "empirical" evidence. None of it matters when you're the one standing in body armour, helmet holding your rifle, listening to the Israeli drone flying overhead and staring the Israeli tank pointing its barrel across the fence. "Thank god im not on the farm, all those accidents"...
No one is saying it Afghanistan. No one is saying its South Sudan. But because its not - you think you have a right to denigrate, minimise, belittle and begrudge families who have given more in the service of the state than we could ask of anyone. Everyone who signs up knows the risks. Everyone knows what could happen. But they still do it. Some of the crew members of R116 were ex-DF. They could have left the DF and been bus drivers or do the taxis but they didnt. They came from a culture of service, of something bigger than themselves.
Agreed, why do you keep bringing it up?
Excuse me. I have certainly denigrated the army deafness claims. Beyond that I have no idea where this comes from.
So why are you moaning on their behalf.
Do they really? I think that the come from a culture of marching about in uniforms, playing with guns, and most of all a deep seated need to follow orders. But hey thats just my opinion.
Itchy, this seems to be very personal for you or else you are getting your knickers in a twist about a reasonable innocuous discussion.
I'm not denigrating anyone. I'm pointing out the hyperbole and Bull that is "spouted" about the realistic risks faced by our armed forces.
It is ironic that you are so scathing of empirical evidence and then so grossly misuse it in your own post. The Irish Army suffered some heavy losses in the 60's in the Congo. Using those losses to exaggerate the risks faced by currently serving members is will, not good.
I'm not denigrating anyone. I'm pointing out the hyperbole and Bull that is "spouted" about the realistic risks faced by our armed forces.
It is ironic that you are so scathing of empirical evidence and then so grossly misuse it in your own post. The Irish Army suffered some heavy losses in the 60's in the Congo. Using those losses to exaggerate the risks faced by currently serving members is will, not good.
- Status