Another abortion referendum?

[bullbars]

Methinks bullbars may have some jesuitical training.....

You can go ahead and delete this nonsense and think before you post about me again in future.

 

[T McGibney]

My OH returned from Ireland yesterday, very depressing, relations mentioning that 'Savita's husband is in it for the money.' I suspect if Savita's husband were Irish we wouldn't be hearing this.

I hope I'm not being too smart but he (your OH) must have some fairly strange relations. I have discussed the Savita case with quite a range of people so far and I haven't heard anyone saying or implying anything bad about Praveen or his motives.

 

[bullbars]

Women need it to be a yes or no answer.

It is not an issue for women, it is a decision for society to make. At present that answer is no, but exceptions for medical reasons can be made.
It is not a yes and no answer. Your demanding a quick fix for a very complicated subject. If it was a “Yes” answer up to what point in the pregnancy do we (society) approve of terminations for example.

You will not answer my question because I think I have not answered your two questions above, is that correct? .

Correct. I don’t know the details that case therefore it is not a yes/no answer.

But you've posted two questions that cannot be answered. Why would you do that?

You’ve used that case, and others, as an argument to permit abortion but can’t give simple details on the case, why would you do that indeed.

The first question is about Savita in Galway. It's not actually relevant whether her life was in jeopardy due to the pregnancy, even if the medical finding now are that she would have died from an infection anyway is not the point.

It is relevant. That case is what started this debate and is what some in the pre-choice groups have latched on to as a case for permitting abortion without knowing the details.

What is important is that any women in Ireland, whose pregnancy may or may not be causing her a risk to her life,.., does not know if she can get a termination.

If the pregnancy is not a risk to her life then she cannot have a termination. How is this still confusing to you?
If it is a risk a termination may be permitted.

..does not know who will decide, who can decide, does not know if the doctor deciding will not ever decide in her favour because of his own moral code or because he's afraid firstly of the law and secondly of the medical council guidelines....

And it's nearly impossible to be 100% accurate that it is a risk to her life in certain circumstances, even a minute risk of less than 1%.

Is this a fact or just your “medical” opinion.

Furthermore the woman has no say whatsoever in the termination decision, she has a say over not terminating but has no say whatsoever about what she considers best for herself.

Correct, she cannot act outside the law off her own bat. Emotion and rationality do not good bedfellows make.

The expert groups report never mentions a woman's choice for termination. It doesn't exist in any circumstances in Ireland unless her life is at risk but in some cases not even then because where do you measure 'risk to life.'

What on earth do you mean by “where do you measure 'risk to life.”

Put it another way. If in all the births in Ireland in the last 10 years that only one woman was at that risk, how would you put that into law. Who would I as another human being be allowed to judge that because that risk is so low that it is statistically non existant. Indeed why should I as a woman who may be at risk ever have to run that risk. And why on earth should other people actually make that decision for me.

Could you rephrase this as it makes no sense.

For your second question what are you referring to? And then I'll try and answer that. Knowing that I cannot answer either question fully, because maybe no one can actually. But if that means you won't answer my question I find that a cop out from you if you don't mind me saying so.

It’s not a cop out, I’m looking for further detail on cases you’ve thrown up as clear reasons we should permit terminations in Ireland, yet you can’t answer basic details on them so I can make an informed answer on the case YOU demanded (twice) and answer on.

 

[delgirl]

Thank goodness for strong, articulate women like Bronte and Truthseeker on this forum.

Women need it to be a yes or no answer.

The first question is about Savita in Galway. It's not actually relevant whether her life was in jeopardy due to the pregnancy, even if the medical finding now are that she would have died from an infection anyway is not the point.

Even apart from the fact that her life was in jeopardy, which in itself is reason enough for termination, Savita's cervix, according to her husband, was completely dilated and the pregnancy was not viable, therefore a termination should have been undertaken immediately instead of allowing her to suffer awaiting a spontaneous abortion.

What is important is that any women in Ireland, whose pregnancy may or may not be causing her a risk to her life, and it's nearly impossible to be 100% accurate that it is a risk to her life in certain circumstances, even a minute risk of less than 1%, does not know if she can get a termination, does not know who will decide, who can decide, does not know if the doctor deciding will not ever decide in her favour because of his own moral code or because he's afraid firstly of the law and secondly of the medical council guidelines. Furthermore the woman has no say whatsoever in the termination decision, she has a say over not terminating but has no say whatsoever about what she considers best for herself. The expert groups report never mentions a woman's choice for termination. It doesn't exist in any circumstances in Ireland unless her life is at risk but in some cases not even then because where do you measure 'risk to life.'

Put it another way. If in all the births in Ireland in the last 10 years that only one woman was at that risk, how would you put that into law. Who would I as another human being be allowed to judge that because that risk is so low that it is statistically non existant. Indeed why should I as a woman who may be at risk ever have to run that risk. And why on earth should other people actually make that decision for me.

Couldn't agree more.

It is not an issue for women, it is a decision for society to make.

It is an issue for women and it's not for society to decide where the pregnancy is not viable or the mother's life is at risk.

 

[MrMan]

It is an issue for women and it's not for society to decide where the pregnancy is not viable or the mother's life is at risk.

So men should have no say on this topic?

 

[oldnick]

Mr Man asks whether men should have any say on this topic.

They should - but it should be proportionate to the time and pain that a man has creating a child compared to the amount of time and pain a woman goes through.

 

[bullbars]

They should - but it should be proportionate to the time and pain that a man has creating a child compared to the amount of time and pain a woman goes through.

Can that be applied to child support after the fact also?

 

[bullbars]

Even apart from the fact that her life was in jeopardy, which in itself is reason enough for termination, Savita's cervix, according to her husband, was completely dilated and the pregnancy was not viable, therefore a termination should have been undertaken immediately instead of allowing her to suffer awaiting a spontaneous abortion.

This is according to what you have heard through the media what her husbands opininion is. You or I do not know this.
If it was possible to preserve both her life and that of her unborn then I think the doctors had a duty to preserve life.
If/when however the facts of the case are released and if it is proven that a termination at an earlier stage would have saved her life, then yes, wihout doubt a termination should have been carried out, never have I said otherwise.
What I have been striving to get through to some is that media hype from one case without the correct details known is no reason to try to paper-mache over the issue in some half hearted attempt to save face.
Currently the Irish people value the life of the unborn, but also recognise that if the life of the mother is in jeopardy she should not be forced to carry the child to full term.

It is an issue for women and it's not for society to decide where the pregnancy is not viable or the mother's life is at risk.

That is not the issue I would like to see debated/voted on by society. The issue that soceity, I think, should have a say on is pro-life V pro choice.

 

[bullbars]

Completely agree on that Bronte, some sinister groups are coming to the fore again with ads in the papers, cold calls, billboard posters and so on. The WIKI page on Youth Defence doesn't paint a very favourable picture of the founders (brother of one of the founders was in a Republican paramilitary group). Also another member (presumably daughter of the founders) Íde Nic Mhathúna is a member of Coir. I would also be interested in who funds both these organisations. Interesting article [broken link removed] on the Nic Mhathúna clan.

Those signs were a disgrace. Those groups are starting to go a bit "westboro-baptist -church-esque".

 

[Leper]

We're firing reasons for this and reasons for that like confetti at a 60's wedding. If this were a Men's issue only, it would have been resolved years ago. Abortion is a Woman's issue. The Woman has a right to choose what happens to her body and perhaps her mind. Let's have this referendum asap. It should not take too long and please confine the voting to Women.

It is a terrible pity that so-called interest groups and our governemnt have used this issue to redirect people's mind from other issues.

 

[Bronte]

I have discussed the Savita case with quite a range of people so far and I haven't heard anyone saying or implying anything bad about Praveen or his motives.

It was most definitely said, and I'll come back to you with the wording of the conversation later.

I find it interesting that you've not encountered anyone who has said Praveen has a monetary motive, but apart from my OH, 4 different people said it to my mother on four separate occasions and this would be in a different county.

Maybe someone else on AAM can confirm that they too have heard this.

 

[Bronte]

It is not an issue for women, it is a decision for society to make.

.

Yes I'd like society to make the decision but it still needs to be a yes or no for women only.

Personally I don't see why we need to debate on whether men should have a say at all on the issue. It's just clouding the debate. What is important is that we as a society debate on whether women can have one, under what circumstances and whether it's ok that 12 Irish women a day go to the UK for an abortion. It is absolutely hypocritical of the Irish people to have voted to allow women to travel for abortion and to have information on abortion but not allow abortion.

If we don't allow abortion then we actually should prevent women travelling to have an abortion. Funnily enough we argued this issue 20 years ago, because actually some groups would like us all tested as we boarded planes.

 

[Bronte]

Currently the Irish people value the life of the unborn,

. The issue that soceity, I think, should have a say on is pro-life V pro choice.

I value the life of the unborn, I think that Savita valued the life of her unborn child, I am pro life and pro choice. But I value the life of the mother more. And I'm not pro abortion either. I wish that abortions weren't necessary but they are.

It is not a choice of pro life versus pro choice. It never has been.

 

[Bronte]

Can that be applied to child support after the fact also?

I wonder how many Irish men have paid for abortions. I wonder how many men would gladly pay for an abortion instead of child support. And no doubt would vote against abortion in Ireland too.

 

[delgirl]

This is according to what you have heard through the media what her husbands opininion is. You or I do not know this.

This information came from the interview with Praveen broadcast on 14th November on RTE's Primetime during which he states, that the medical staff confirmed she was miscarrying 17 weeks into her pregnancy, her cervix was completely dilated, thus making the pregnancy unviable.

I can't find the link at the moment on the RTE player, looks like it's been removed?

 

[Bronte]

If the pregnancy is not a risk to her life then she cannot have a termination. How is this still confusing to you?
If it is a risk a termination may be permitted.



What on earth do you mean by “where do you measure 'risk to life.”

.

Bullbars I have never demanded you answer my questions. I've just asked you the question that's all. Now you've answered thank you.

In relation to measuring risk to life. From what you've posted it seem clear that you think the issue is clear cut on risk to life. If I'm wrong on that I apologise. But this risk to life it is not at all clearly measurable. Doctors can have different medical opinion, if you look at the expert group report on legislation for the X case, they realise that it is not an easy thing to judge. For suicide it would be nearly impossible to make a correct risk assessment because the only way to know for sure if if the woman goes ahead and commits suicide and I think no matter how medically experienced a doctor would have great difficulty in 'measuring risk.'

Apart from suicide there are medical situations where the doctors have to make a judgment call on whether the risk is too great or not. And where they err on the side of the unborn it can be at the price of losing two lives, which I believe is what happened in Galway, that they were obsessed with the foetal heartbeat and the fact there was one meant for a reason we awaiting the results of they would not do the abortion. And most tragically because the unborn from what I've read, that unborn, was going to die anyway.

As a women I do not want any Irish woman to ever have doctors make those judgements for me and for those doctors own medical ethics or medical guidelines mean that they will chose to let even a slight risk to me to mean that they allow me no say, but they will allow me take the risk. No problem if as a pregnant woman I choose to continue with a pregnancy where there is some risk, that is only right and proper, and indeed Irish women can and do make those choices, sometimes with happy endings. I could not in all conscience say to a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape that she must have the baby, I could not say to a woman whose baby is going to die after birth that she must continue with the pregnancy, or as a doctor direct here to the UK, I could not tell a woman suffering from cancer, that I will not treat her until she take the plane and comes back after an abortion and will then treat her. These are hard choices and hard decisions to make. But Irish women cannot in Ireland make those choices.

This is an extraordinarily difficult topic. There are no easy answers. But avoiding it and not debating it and having an Irish solution in the UK is wrong. Also it is wrong of the medical fraternity to allow themselves be hijacked and not even use the word abortion when they do carry them out but instead hide behind words such as 'medical procedure.'

 

[truthseeker]

Can that be applied to child support after the fact also?

What an utterly ridiculous statement.

 

[bullbars]

What an utterly ridiculous statement.

Why. If the male populace have no say in the life of the child why should they be compelled to make an input after.

 

[MrMan]

Mr Man asks whether men should have any say on this topic.

They should - but it should be proportionate to the time and pain that a man has creating a child compared to the amount of time and pain a woman goes through.

what about the pain a man feels when he knows that his unborn will be terminated and he has absolutely no say on the matter.

So we should only really let women capable of child birth have a say on this matter to follow your logic?

 

[truthseeker]

Why. If the male populace have no say in the life of the child why should they be compelled to make an input after.

Do you understand biology?

Women and men have an equal stake in the creation of a pregnancy, an unequal stake in the process of pregnancy and childbirth and an equal financial and moral responsibility to a child if it is born.

Its shocking to think that an adult would not understand these basic facts.