Another abortion referendum?

[Bronte]

Ah so it’s an inside job; he gave his medical expertise for guidelines but obviously this means they didn’t consult anyone else and listened to his moral rather than medical facts.

Thankfully they don’t really on members of the public to yay or nay medical guidelines. I, for one, am thankful for that. What did you expect, Dr. Monaghan and his evil cronies to go re-write the guidelines off their own bat, ignoring the legal status of the matter. Again I am thankful they can’t do that.



Again doctors can’t really make up their own rules and laws as they go, they do have to consult with the applicable laws of the land etc.

Maybe it's high time the public were consulted on what goes into the Medical guidelines. And to answer your question on whether the doctors who wrote the guidelines ignore the law. Prof O' Dwyer seems to think so. And of course he has nothing to do with Dr. Monaghan, who just happens to be one of those who did write the guidelines.

 

[bullbars]

Medical guidelines Dr. Monaghan is medical expert not a legal expert, so the medical guidelines he helped draft are not the law in Ireland. That's what I mean about them amounting to naught legally. The 1800's act, the constitutional amendment and the Supreme court judgement are the law on abortion in Ireland.

I never said he was a legal expert. I stated clearly that he, along with other medical professionals could only draw up guidelines within the current legal standing on abortion, not change it. You seem confused on this, please read my comment again.

Two Masters at two of Ireland leading maternal hospitals have confirmed that this is a grey area. The anti- abortions have been very clear that it is in fact not a grey area. Who do you think is correct?

Whats your point here? Are you still trying to get me to pin my colours to a mast and as you put it “I want everyone who speaks on this matter to declare their agenda before they speak”
I don’t have an agenda. I would like to hear both sides put forward informed coherent arguments before jumping in both feet first. And I don’t recall signing an oath to declare all to you before I speak on this matter

You comment

“Or was it FORNICATION that caused this mess you find yourself in”
My reply to this is :
In fact I have absolutely nothing to say to that comment, it makes its own comment quite adequately.

You have misrepresented what I said. It wasn’t a factual comment. Please don’t resort to childishness.

My emotions on this topic - Savita Halappanavar, refused termination, dead in the leading maternal hospital in the west of Ireland

You have assumed that termination would’ve saved her despite, by your own admission, you are not a medical expert. Despite the contorted and insensitive tale you tried to spin in post #231; you don’t know the facts of this case. Nobody does and I think we should wait the results of the relevant investigations prior to jumping to conclusions.

- Grainne, audience of Primetime this week, 7 weeks pregnant, physically appeared as though she was 6 months pregnant due to major internal problems, refused medical tests due to being pregnant, finally they went in, if they didn't she too would be dead

She was refused medical tests or abortion? And the fact that the tests then went ahead and she is not dead shows that they did consider the life of the mother. I don’t see how this adds weight to your argument?

- Joe Duffy's Liveline, too many real women's stories to list

Real women stories as opposed to what? The fake ones – how do we decipher who is telling the truth, or do you do that based on whether or not it suits your argument.

- Michelle Harte, pregnant, ill with cancer, refused cancer treatment due to pregnancy, her consultant wanted to abort but couldn’t due to the grey area, so an 'ad hoc' ethics committee was formed to decide, abortion refused, she had to be physically helped onto a plane to the UK to get an abortion. She too is dead as is her unborn child.

This is a good example of what is being debated. The right to life of the unborn or the right of the mother to choose to terminate so that she will live.

- Anne Lovett, pregnant young teenager, died giving birth alone in a cold graveyard, no one knew she was pregnant

an unfortunate case I think this highlights more the social stigma at the time of being pregnant so young and out of wedlock. However, if I recall correctly (and I’m open to correction on this), her life wasn’t in danger from the pregnancy, it was due to exposure and lack of medical supervision.

- Joanne Hayes, hiding a shameful pregnancy, gave birth probably alone, buried baby in garden, Gardaí found another baby a few miles away, accused her of murdering the second baby, initially they wouldn't look where she said her actual baby was buried, and later when they did tried to 'medically' prove they were twins. Result 2 dead babies that were found and a women left traumatised forever.

This highlights the point I made previously; abortion being used as a get out for a “shameful pregnancy”. The mothers’ life was in no danger; it was a murder of convenience for her. If the first child had not been found on the beach, it is quite possible that she would’ve gotten away with murder. Plain and simple.
Obviously I can’t comment for the case of the other unknown mother in this instance, but then again no one can. The actions and attitude of the Gardai are a separate issue.

There were of course many other dead babies all over the Irish countryside. As far as I recall the infamous Kerry babies tribunall didn't go into that.

This is hyperbole; you seem to suggest the country was awash with dead babies all over the country now?

I am not emotional I am ashamed of the above, and ashamed of myself for not having done more on this issue and ashamed of Irish people who continue to allow it to happen.

You can be ashamed of yourself for whatever reasons all you want, but as an Irish person I don’t you to parade around as being ashamed on my behalf thank you.
The Irish people recognise the right to life of the unborn currently; To change this is a huge social issue that you don’t seem to take cognisance of, just throw around a few unfortunate cases to shove your point across.

Exporting the problem to the UK is shameful

We don’t export this issue. That is a false and misleading phrase. The UK is the nearest country that happens to permit terminations up to a certain stage.

Even if I were emotional on this topic, so what, I'm an emotional woman. Why is that thrown at me as though there is something wrong with being emotional. Do you think that being emotional means I'm not rational?

Judging by post #231, no I don’t think you are being rational. You seem to want a quick fix turn around to somehow save face an appease Mr. Halappanavar.

Social abortions

I recognise that some women are not careful and get themselves pregnant.

There is nothing going to stop people getting pregnant and having an abortion to deal with that.

Well at least you can recognise that is a reality; I’m afraid truthseeker finds that an unbelievable situation.

There is really no debate to be had with someone who actually thinks that a woman would blithely be only too happy to get rid of the life they have created

(btw they didnt create it on their own, there would have been a man involved too).

I would’ve thought that was a given at this stage. Did you recently discover this and feel it had to be shared with the group?

I note that you never once mentioned that it was a man that got them pregnant.

Well it was hardly a pack of wild donkeys or couple of prawns that went down the wrong way now was it.

Where is the man's responsibility in this 'fornication' as you refer to it as.

I did not refer to it as fornication in that sense, please don’t contort my words. It was clearly a acerbic statement I made.
Where is the man’s responsibility? That is the point that Purple(?) had previously made; this isn’t just a women’s issue. Men should be included in this to ensure that they are definitely equally responsible for the life they have created, and have a say on what can happen to that life. Hence this is not a women only issue. I’m not sure what point you were making?

There is no solution to this but this is not a justification for not allowing abortion in rape, incest, foetal abnormality, cancer/illness etc. in a pregnant woman.

But the line between a social abortion and abortion to preserve the life of the mother is not as clear cut as you make it. On the other thread you highlight this yourself- your friend who was 15 and pregnant wanted abortion, feigned suicidal thoughts and got the result she wanted.

Do you think that because some women are as you put it 'too damn naïve and irresponsible', that is an answer to the women I listed above.

Yes frankly, some were. Obviously they were, you even referred to them as shameful pregnancies. These women did not intend to have children with their sexual partner yet found themselves pregnant.

Was Anne Lovett too damn naïve and irresponsible? Or Michelle Harte, or Savita Halappanavar.

Anne Lovett possibly. It was an unwanted pregnancy, she was very young and it was obviously also a case of statutory rape. You have accepted above that social abortions (is this the correct phrase?) are a part of society, this was an unfortunate example of this.
Michelle Harte was a clear cut medical intervention required to preserve the mothers life at the detriment to the life of her unborn child.
In the recent case of Savita Halappanavar, you have again jumped to the conclusion that a termination earlier would have saved her; you don’t know this.

Society playing God

Isn't that what the doctors in Ireland do when they weight up the life of a mother versus the life of the unborn?

At present abortions are permitted as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother. At present the Irish people also value the life of the unborn and attempt to preserve both.

Symposium

Can you tell me who the 140 experts at this conference were ?
Can you show me the 'Dublin Declaration' signed by all the leading medical experts at this conference?
Can you show me where the new medical findings have been peer reviewed?

I don’t see why I have to answer this for you; you are the one who denounced this as having some sort of anti-abortion agenda yet have shown no facts to prove it. You are the one who conjured an incorrect link between two medical experts and then decided for yourself that it had an anti-abortion agenda. You go and find out who the 140 medical experts are before you accuse them of having an agenda and prioritising it over medical findings. You go do the research before you think things are “clear to you”.

Can you show me where the 'medical findings' that abortion is never necessary to save a mother's life is documented as fact in a leading medical publication such as the Lancet?

This sentence makes no sense.
I can’t show you that because that is not what I, or in fact the symposium conclusion had stated.
Again - the conclusion was -
“We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child. We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”
And also
“no treatment should ever be withheld from a woman if she needed it to save her life, even if that treatment resulted in the loss of life of her unborn child.”
Seeing as you are (now conveniently after one article) such an avid reader of The Lancet, please feel free to share all the articles you have read throughout your non-existent medial history that will confirm that abortion will solve all problems and the life of the mother shall be preserved.

You are hearing hooves, seeing horses but still want to see zebras.

 

[bullbars]

Maybe it's high time the public were consulted on what goes into the Medical guidelines. And to answer your question on whether the doctors who wrote the guidelines ignore the law. Prof O' Dwyer seems to think so. And of course he has nothing to do with Dr. Monaghan, who just happens to be one of those who did write the guidelines.

Can you please prove where the law has been ignored by both parties as you are prepared to level such an accusation?

 

[bullbars]

tldr - except the last bit.

Thank you, I will ensure to inform you when I don't bother to read your response.

tldr - except the last bit.

There is really no debate to be had with someone who actually thinks that a woman would blithely be only too happy to get rid of the life they have created (btw they didnt create it on their own, there would have been a man involved too).[/QUOTE]
If you don't think some women have abortions of convenience, then it is you who is being naiive.

Seriously - is this what you think? Do you think any woman chooses to pay the financial, emotional and physical cost of travelling to another country to undergo a medical procedure easily and as though its no big deal?)

I never said this. The fact is some women do not want to continue a pregnancy, not for medical reasons but for their own reasons. May be social stigma, maybe they won't be able to tell who the father was etc. You don't honestly accept me to believe that everyone of the women who "had" to go to England to avail of abortion facilities there do so for purely medical reasons.

If thats really what you think, I can only conclude you really dont know anything about women or abortion at all.

What sort of argument is this? You are tryin to tell me that no woman has ever just wanted rid of her unborn due to personal situation - result of an affair / possibility of not knowing the father / financial insecurity etc. Am I insinuating that this is the case for every woman? Not at all. The sad reality is, this happens. One may see it as choosing to do with ones body as one pleases, but to counter that one is also choosing to end the life of another body.

btw the correct term is pro-choice, pro-abortion is an inaccurate term which implies that abortion is the correct choice in all circumstances), there is no element of use and abuse if something is a choice. Its only when you are trying to make someone feel that they are morally wrong that that term is relevant.

My apologies, that phrase is incorrect. I was not using it as some sort of "morality mallet" to beat either your or Bronte with; merely refering to it (incorrectly) as the opposite of the pro-life choice.

 

[bullbars]

Broadsheet.ie has a little something special from Prof O'Dwyer here . I suppose you could argue his quotes were taken out of conext or in reference to a 14 year-old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant he actually called it "consensual, an act of unlawful carnal knowledge".

That's quite an extraordinary document. Prof O' Dwyer has actually written that the infamous rape victim Ms. X got pregnant 'after consensual intercourse with a grown man.' The perpetrator in that case was jailed for rape, how can he write that it was consensual. After all she went though he would tell untruths about what happened to her. Has he no morals about writing such an untruth.

Was the adult convicted of rape or Statutory rape?
If it was the latter then she may have "consented" to the sexual conduct but due to her age this "consent" was not legal consent -therefore Statutory rape.

 

[Bronte]

This highlights the point I made previously; abortion being used as a get out for a “shameful pregnancy”. The mothers’ life was in no danger; it was a murder of convenience for her. If the first child had not been found on the beach, it is quite possible that she would’ve gotten away with murder. Plain and simple.
.
This is hyperbole; you seem to suggest the country was awash with dead babies all over the country now?

You are referring to the infamous case of the Kerry babies and Joanne Hayes. Maybe if Ms. Hayes had access to sex education or indeed contraception (she wasn't married) or abortion she need not have given birth in a field, because that what lots of women did then. Her own GP knew of 7 cases of women giving birth and the baby being buried. Amazing in that small area 2 babies were discovered at this time. So yes I do think there were a lot of dead babies buried all over the place. But no again I cannot prove it because it's not something that anyone would talk about never mind collect statistics on.

Just to clear up this story, you said it was a murder of convenience. No court in Ireland ever convicted Joanne Hayes for murder and she served no time for same, nor was she tried for murdering her child. The Kerry babies tribunal was not set up to decide she killed her baby, though the judge decided she did, despite there being no medical evidence that she did.

For those that want to know, the tribunal was actually set up to work out how come nearly 7 people in one family could write down detailed confessions that they all were involved in the death of the Cahirciveen baby. And just for the record I remember this story, I remember what happened at that tribunal and I'm ashamed of that too.

 

[Bronte]

Michelle Harte was a clear cut medical intervention required to preserve the mothers life at the detriment to the life of her unborn child.

If this case was so clear cut why was the lady denied an abortion in Ireland?

 

[bullbars]

If this case was so clear cut why was the lady denied an abortion in Ireland?

Because her life was not in immediate danger. I say it was clear cut in that it is a clear case whereby this debate is relevant; Some others you'd listed were not.

 

[Bronte]

Because her life was not in immediate danger. I say it was clear cut in that it is a clear case whereby this debate is relevant;

Do you not think she should have been allowed an abortion?

 

[bullbars]

Do you not think she should have been allowed an abortion?

That is the crux of what is being debated.

 

[Bronte]

And Bullbars do you think she should have been allowed an abortion?

 

[Bronte]

I see that Hilary Clinton has mentioned abortion while giving a speech in Dublin last week. I cannot find the speech anyone have a link?

I must say I commend Gabriel Byrne and other Irish ex pats for lobbying her on this issue:

[broken link removed]

Meanwhile Irish Bishops are claiming we don't need legislation and that we should have another referendum, something that I agree with. They were apparently marching on the streets. Interesting that they chose to do that on this issue but did not march for the clerical abuse victims. Nor have they brought pressure to bear on the last Papal Nuncio and the Vatican to release the church files on that abhorrent story. Says a lot about how much they actually care for real people.

 

[bullbars]

And Bullbars do you think she should have been allowed an abortion?

I don't know enough of her story to fully comment;
Was she terminally ill?
what was the reason she sought an abortion?
Was she diagnosed prior to concieving?

 

[bullbars]

I see that Hilary Clinton has mentioned abortion while giving a speech in Dublin last week. I cannot find the speech anyone have a link?

I must say I commend Gabriel Byrne and other Irish ex pats for lobbying her on this issue

Does Gabriel Byrne know something we don't? Does he have information that an abortion would have saved her?

 

[Bronte]

Does Gabriel Byrne know something we don't? Does he have information that an abortion would have saved her?

Maybe he's just concerned about the treatment of pregnant Irish women in Ireland where it's not legally clear to a woman when and if and where she can have an abortion despite waiting 20 years for legal clarity. Nor is it clear who will perform abortions nor is it clear who can make that decision, other than the fact that it is clear the women herself cannot make any decision on it.

Do you think if an abortion would have saved her life that she should have been entitled to one?

 

[bullbars]

Maybe he's just concerned ..

If he's concerned that's one thing. Piggy backing on the latest tragedy even though the details are not clear is a dicgrace and he shouldn't be given a pat on the back for it.

.... women in Ireland where it's not legally clear to a woman when and if and where she can have an abortion despite waiting 20 years for legal clarity?

Abortion is not permitted in Ireland. There are circumstances whereby this rule can be surpased; like when the life of the mother is in jeopardy.

Nor is it clear who will perform abortions nor is it clear who can make that decision, other than the fact that it is clear the women herself cannot make any decision on it.

Society should decided on whether or not abortion should be permitted.

Do you think if an abortion would have saved her life that she should have been entitled to one.

Answer my previous questions before I will answer that.
Was her life in jeopardy due to the pregnancy?
Was the cancer terminal irregardless of an abortion?

It's not a yes and no answer

 

[Bronte]

Answer my previosu questions before I will answer that.
Was her life in jeoparfy due to the pregnancy?
Was the cancer terminal irregardless of an abortion?

It's not a yes and no answer

Women need it to be a yes or no answer.

You will not answer my question because I think I have not answered your two questions above, is that correct? But you've posted two questions that cannot be answered. Why would you do that? Nevertheless I'll do my best as I don't have a problem answering questions, where I think I can, doesn't mean I'm right but I'll try anyway.

The first question is about Savita in Galway. It's not actually relevant whether her life was in jeopardy due to the pregnancy, even if the medical finding now are that she would have died from an infection anyway is not the point.

What is important is that any women in Ireland, whose pregnancy may or may not be causing her a risk to her life, and it's nearly impossible to be 100% accurate that it is a risk to her life in certain circumstances, even a minute risk of less than 1%, does not know if she can get a termination, does not know who will decide, who can decide, does not know if the doctor deciding will not ever decide in her favour because of his own moral code or because he's afraid firstly of the law and secondly of the medical council guidelines. Furthermore the woman has no say whatsoever in the termination decision, she has a say over not terminating but has no say whatsoever about what she considers best for herself. The expert groups report never mentions a woman's choice for termination. It doesn't exist in any circumstances in Ireland unless her life is at risk but in some cases not even then because where do you measure 'risk to life.'

Put it another way. If in all the births in Ireland in the last 10 years that only one woman was at that risk, how would you put that into law. Who would I as another human being be allowed to judge that because that risk is so low that it is statistically non existant. Indeed why should I as a woman who may be at risk ever have to run that risk. And why on earth should other people actually make that decision for me.

For your second question what are you referring to? And then I'll try and answer that. Knowing that I cannot answer either question fully, because maybe no one can actually. But if that means you won't answer my question I find that a cop out from you if you don't mind me saying so.

 

[dereko1969]

Methinks bullbars may have some jesuitical training.....

 

[Bronte]

What do you mean by that dereko?

My OH returned from Ireland yesterday, very depressing, relations mentioning that 'Savita's husband is in it for the money.' I suspect if Savita's husband were Irish we wouldn't be hearing this.

It's like a time warp now in Ireland with the actions of nameless people putting up posters in Dublin to intimidate Minister Alan Shatter. Why not have the honesty to put your name to a poster if you believe that putting up posters is the right thing to do. If you believe in your convictions in your actions, why on earth would you sneak around with posters.

Could anyone tell me where one can find accurate information on who is behind Youth Defence and who funds them.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Completely agree on that Bronte, some sinister groups are coming to the fore again with ads in the papers, cold calls, billboard posters and so on. The WIKI page on Youth Defence doesn't paint a very favourable picture of the founders (brother of one of the founders was in a Republican paramilitary group). Also another member (presumably daughter of the founders) Íde Nic Mhathúna is a member of Coir. I would also be interested in who funds both these organisations. Interesting article [broken link removed] on the Nic Mhathúna clan.