Another abortion referendum?

[orka]

I'm not a medical person but your question may not be as clever as you think.

It was as clever as it needed to be to get your answer which I think is basically 'as long as there's a heartbeat and the mother's life is not obviously at risk, press on with the pregnancy'?

 

[Betsy Og]

The other relevant point of course is that only 17% of Africans are Catholics. (2005 figures) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Africa

No-one is saying they are the cause of it, or that if they changed it would magically cure it, but their stance certainty aint helping. Its just another example of the dis-connect between CC and the real world, sure even their own clergy are starting to say it. I think the "fix" is more that their influence hold less sway than actually trying to talk them around to some pragmatism/realism.

 

[michaelm]

It was as clever as it needed to be to get your answer which I think is basically 'as long as there's a heartbeat and the mother's life is not obviously at risk, press on with the pregnancy'?

Of course; these are evolving situations.

 

[T McGibney]

No-one is saying they are the cause of it, or that if they changed it would magically cure it, but their stance certainty aint helping. Its just another example of the dis-connect between CC and the real world, sure even their own clergy are starting to say it. I think the "fix" is more that their influence hold less sway than actually trying to talk them around to some pragmatism/realism.

I agree that their stance isn't helping and to a large extent is nonsensical. However while you are correct in saying that the RCC policy is not the cause of Africa's AIDS woes, there are an awful lot of people out there who claim that it is.

 

[Bronte]

I would trust that the clinical team would endeavour to sustain the pregnancy where practical but that care for the mother would be paramount.

On what grounds could you trust the clinical team in an Irish hospital? In the particular situation of a decision having to be taken between two lives? It's the whole nub of the issue. I don't want to have trust, I want to know that if my life or indeed my mere health was at risk that a doctor would act in my best interest first. I don't want doctors who have an ethical issue with weighting up the choice between baby and mother to wait a second on the possible chance that both will survive, unless I was consulted and fully agreed with such a course of action. Me being a mere pregnant women in Ireland though gives me no decision making in the process at all. I'd be just a lamb to the slaughter as doctors take on the role of life decider based on their morals, not my morals. How frightened women must be in Irish hospitals when they have a clinical problem and they suddently realise they are at the mercy of the particular morals of a particular doctor. We heard from plenty of them last week on the airwaves to know that women have gone though the very same set of circumstances as Ms. Halappenaver.

It seems her husband not only doesn't trust the medical teams after his experience, but he doesn't even want one medical professional from all of Galway to assist the enquity, such is his lack of trust in the truth eminating from them now after the event.

 

[Bronte]

George Hook interview with John Monaghan, Consultant, Portinucula Hospital Monday the 19th Nov

I felt I was in a time warp yesterday when I heard this interview. Busy doing the kids dinner and listening to this, but I really felt we had gone back 30 years with two arrogant men talking down to us mere plebs. If anyone else heard it could they confirm that I have not misunderstood the programme.

George launched into an attack on India, and an extraordinary outburst on Clare Daly, with radio clips to I think prove that she is some kind of crazy warrior for women - really brings one back to what went before when this all started 3 decades ago.

I really sat up and listened when he interview John Monaghan, Gyn & Obe. George was at pains to point out that Portinucula, Co. Galway is in no way linked to Galway Hospital, but the name John Monaghan rang a bell with me as I had studied abortion last week and amazing enough John Monaghan was a speaker at a symposium on the 8th Sept held in Dublin. Here is a link to the Irish times article on the symposium (conference).

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html

The ostensible point of the interview was to prove that us women are well served by Irish doctors and have nothing to fear. That India is a 3rd world country in comparison with us and that we need to fear the likes of Clare Daly. It was brain washing of the highest order in my opinion.

What was not pointed out is that there is indeed a link between John Monaghan and the Galway hospital. The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.

What was the conclusion of the conference:

As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

Now come on George you can do better than that, you could have pointed out that John Monaghan is indeed linked to Galway Hospital via his relationship with Prof O' Dwyer and both according to the Irish times article are anti-abortion campaigners. When you're up against apparent spin in the national media and indeed hidden agendas would anyone be surprised that Mr. Haleppenavar doesn't want any medical professional from the county of Galway on the enquiry.

 

[bullbars]

George was at pains to point out that Portinucula, Co. Galway is in no way linked to Galway Hospital

I think that is it responsible of him to point out that the two Hospitals are not linked; some could make that leap of the imagination and incorrectly label them as being at fault also.

The ostensible point of the interview was to prove that us women are well served by Irish doctors and have nothing to fear.

So women should fear going to hospital and that Irish Doctors are some sort of saw-bone quacks? What happened was a tragedy and should not have happened, however is this happening every week at a high rate?
Your ostensible point coming across is that women should go to Irish doctors in fear, to be judged, butchered and slung out the back door all because of their morals on that day.

What was not pointed out is that there is indeed a link between John Monaghan and the Galway hospital. The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.

You haven’t shown a link between Mr. Monaghan and Galway Hospital; all you’ve pointed out is that they are members of a professional institute. I am a member of a few professional bodies but I don’t find myself in trouble or linked with the mistakes of other members. This is an illogical attempt to tar all with the one brush by association.

What was the conclusion of the conference:
As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

No – the conclusion was -
“We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child. We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”
And also
“no treatment should ever be withheld from a woman if she needed it to save her life, even if that treatment resulted in the loss of life of her unborn child.”
You’ve just picked what you wanted to hear from that article and turned it against them for your on arguments sake.
The statement you’ve selected doesn’t even make them out to be anti-abortion; they’ve just clarified that a quick abortion isn’t always a quick fix solution.
The article even states that the conference was not linked to any pro-life/anti abortion group or campaign. It was a medical professional group.

When you're up against apparent spin in the national media and indeed hidden agendas would anyone be surprised that Mr. Haleppenavar doesn't want any medical professional from the county of Galway on the enquiry.

What spin? George Hook isn’t the national media; it’s one independent station; George Hook isn’t a national representative.
What “hidden agenda’s”?
Mr Haleppenavar does not want anyone from Galway Hospital involved, and would be common practice from an impartiality point of view. Not due to hidden agendas you imagine on the air waves.

 

[truthseeker]

Your ostensible point coming across is that women should go to Irish doctors in fear, to be judged, butchered and slung out the back door all because of their morals on that day.

While the above might be putting it in a sensationalist manner, yes, women in Ireland do live in fear of moral judgement of doctors. Ask any woman over 35 you know if she feels she has been judged morally by a member of the medical profession in Ireland and most of them will tell you yes. Even today, many women do not like the idea of going to a Well Woman clinic due to the holdover of the days when they used to lecture and criticise young girls who came looking to go on the pill or for a pregnancy test. I had a male doctor refuse me the contraceptive pill and then went to another doctor who prescribed it immediately and claimed the first guy was just 'old fashioned' and wouldnt prescribe it to unmarried women.

 

[Bronte]

I think that is it responsible of him to point out that the two Hospitals are not linked; some could make that leap of the imagination and incorrectly label them as being at fault also.

So you think the Galway city hospital is at fault in some way?

What I mean by link is the following:

Galway City Hospital

Galway City hospital is known locally as the Regional, it's proper titles University Hospital Galway (UHG) or University College Hospital or University College Hospital Galway (UCHG) - take your pick

Galway university

Now known as NUI Galway. National University of Ireland, Galway, previously known as UCG, University College Galway.

The hospital and the university are literally across the road from one another and in the West of Ireland NUIG is the medical training school for doctors/ nurses/etc having therefore a School of Medicine and that teaching takes place in the university and in the hospital.

Both the hospital and the university are therefore completely intertwined.

Link between Portinucula hospital and Galway Hospital

As I'm not a medical person I don't know of the medical links if any between the two. But Dr. Monaghan did not clarify on the radio yesterday that he is on the teaching staff of NUIG. That I think is amazing, why not just state there is no link between his hospital Portinucula and Galway hospital but there is a link between him and NUIG.

I doubt if Prof O' Dwyer is still lecturing etc due to his age but on the Symposium he lists himself as Professor Emeritus. He was Chair of the symposium and Dr. Monaghan was a speak at that symposium.

The two men are linked also on two different bodies. In addition and it was not pointed out on the radio yesterday, Dr. Monagan helped draft the 2009 medical guidelines on abortion. Some people might be surprised to learn, as I was that they amount to one solitary page. On my reading of them, and someone might correct me too on this, they amount to naugt. So we are basically left with the Supreme Court judgement etc. Not very helpful to women to know their rights or doctors their duty. I have been amazed in the past week with the medical professionalls telling us that the situation of what to do is absolutely cristal clear to them. How can it be if we have no legislation. No doctor has pointed out that their medical guidelines do not carry any legal weight (also open to correction on this)

Catholic ethos of Hospital

As far as I know there is no official Catholic ethos at Galway in the formal sense. It was never run by a religious order (I'm open to correction on this). But this does not mean that the staff of particularly Irish origin are statistically bound to be coming from traditional Catholic stock. I have no issue with anyone's religion but it is naive to assume that a hospital or indeed any insitution in Ireland is not 'Catholic' just because it is not officially so.

Symoposium

It is quite clear to me that this conference was run to a specific agenda. To prove that abortion is never necessary to save a pregnant women. So from my reading of it medical professionals who had an anti abortion agenda held a conference to prove this very 'fact'.

Medically, and as previously stated I'm not medically, trained their 'Dublin Declaration' is nonsense. Abortion is absolutely sometimes necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman. These occurances are rare.

Fear of Irish doctors

You may be assured that one should have a healthy respect for the power of doctors when you are in a life or death situation. I did not give birth in Ireland, and I've had both natural and caesarian. But I do have siblings and relations who have given birth in Ireland, including the Galway hospital. Like truthseeker I too was judged when young and to live it is to know it. Luckily for various reasons I knew where to go. So my fear is deeply held. I've seen what Neary did, I've seen what happened over the years in various horrific stories that I'm not going to go into on here.

It's my belief that if Ms. Halappanavar had been Irish she would have had a better chance because they didn't 'get it' about Catholic Ireland. Her husband should have screamed blue murder or called in another professional or called in a relation who was a doctor to get on the case or got in a taxi and gone to another hospital. That's what an educated Irish person would have done. They were probaby too polite or trusting to do so.

Most unfortunately for him, and he's being helped by a good Irish solicitor, he gets it now. But it's too late. But maybe not too late for the rest of us. 30 years is too long. So I support him every step of the way.

This is an extremely contentious issue and I want everyone who speaks on this matter to declare their agenda before they speak. Out of respect for Ms. Halappanavar. And I think I've a right as an Irish women who has given birth to know what agendas other people have for me and other Irish women.

Newstalk broadcasts to the nation so to me it is the national airwaves

 

[truthseeker]

An interview with Mr Halappanavar will be broadcast on Primetime tonight.

 

[Bronte]

I've not seen Primetime but I did hear part of the interview.

What must it be like to lose your wife and unborn child, believing that if the doctors had intervened earlier she, your beloved wife, could have been saved. Believing maybe that you'd done something wrong, believing maybe if you'd taken her to another hospital she could have been saved. After the trauma of that, after being comforted by the hospital staff, after having to arrange to transport your wife's body back to India. After having to get a death certificate to allow transportation of the body, a death certificate that was difficult to obtain, and then arriving in India to your parents and family and your wife's family. How would you explain that you were in a first world country and that your wife had died for lack of basic medical attention. How for two weeks you were questioned by your own family and hers on every minutiae of every detail of every moment of your one week of hell, of your life ahead without her and what might have been and of your exhaustion and trauma of bringing her body home. And you were sure before you left Ireland that something would be done about what happened and you had been assured it would be so, and you told this every day to your family and to hers and every day nothing. So finally you cracked, you realised actually they are going to do nothing, and actually those that are telling you they would have an inquiry, have while you were gone done nothing, and you'd slowly realise that those who told you there would be an inquiry, they were actually the ones responsible for what happened. What would you do, what could you do. What should you do. What is one man against a whole establishment and against forces of which you know nothing about.

Well then Ireland and the HSI has underestimated poor brave Praveen Halappanaver. He had kept his dignified silence in the midst of his grief and he in memory of his wife spoke to the only outlet he had, the Irish Times. And was he right, oh so right as been proved by the actions of the HSE, the Minister for Health, James Reilly, the Department of Health, even to our eternal shame our Taoiseach Enda Kenny, who in a most unedifying manner yesterday in the Dail appealed over his chosen mode of communication via his solicitor, directly to the man himself. How insulting that the leader of our country could make such a spectacle of himself. That he should say to that poor grieving man, 'I know you are a decent man.' What is wrong with politicians that they would do such a thing. How ashamed I was yesterday to be Irish.

How ashamed I've been to see comments about India, most grievous comments made about the grieving husband and his motives. Unprintable comment. Shocking comment. Insulting comment. It is true, we are medieval and barbaric. And until we stand up to this we have progressed not one jot from the mind-set that went before.

Last night I kissed my lovely Irish children in their beds and thought how has it come to this. How again have our leaders failed us. How have we failed by allowing that failure to continue. That's why I've commented on here, but I guess I'm talking to myself.

 

[orka]

I saw most of the interview (missed the start) and I thought he came across extremely well - not in any way aggressive or demanding - just very calm and measured (he praised the midwives and nurses for their excellent care of his wife), seeking to understand how this could possibly have happened and wanting assurance that it can't happen again.
I thought the panel discussion wasn't great (too much long-winded, not very convincing discussion of how the inquiry should be done) and I have to say if I was one of the Galway doctors I would feel hung out to dry by the anti-abortion side who seem to be pinning their hopes on this being medical negligence.

 

[bullbars]

So you think the Galway city hospital is at fault in some way?

Have you misread my answer? I was not trying to apportion blame/fault; clearly what happened at UCHG was not linked to Portiuncla hospital. It is responsible journalism to ensure that the two are not confused as the same hospital.

I think that is it responsible of him to point out that the two Hospitals are not linked; some could make that leap of the imagination and incorrectly label them as being at fault also.

What I mean by link is the following:
Galway City Hospital
Galway City hospital is known locally as the Regional, its proper titles University Hospital Galway (UHG) or University College Hospital or University College Hospital Galway (UCHG) - take your pick

OK, I’ll pick.....em......UCHG...is this the right answer? Not sure what your point is.

Galway university
Now known as NUI Galway. National University of Ireland, Galway, previously known as UCG, University College Galway.

Fascinating.

The hospital and the university are literally across the road from one another

Should google maps fail me in an emergency I shall rely on this little nugget of info. Thank you.

and in the West of Ireland NUIG is the medical training school for doctors/ nurses/etc having therefore a School of Medicine and that teaching takes place in the university and in the hospital.

Wait ...so teaching...and...medical training....being taught..in...in...a..UNIVERSITY??!! Are you sure? This sounds like madness, madness I tell you.

Both the hospital and the university are therefore completely intertwined.

Yes, I figured that one out all by myself. I’ll tell you how I deciphered the clue – It’s hidden in the name – “University College Hospital Galway”

Link between Portinucula hospital and Galway Hospital
As I'm not a medical person I don't know of the medical links if any between the two.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions and admitting you have no evidence proving that they are linked.

But Dr. Monaghan did not clarify on the radio yesterday that he is on the teaching staff of NUIG. That I think is amazing, why not just state there is no link between his hospital Portinucula and Galway hospital but there is a link between him and NUIG.

Teaching at a University does not mean Dr. Monaghan has any say or influence on hospital procedures. He teaches a set syllabus at the University.

What you forget to mention is that he was trained in Trinity College - known locally as ‘Trinners’) or as TCD , Trinity College Dublin;formally known as the College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth – Take you pick (although I’m not sure why we’re picking but I don’t want you feeling left out)

He also worked in the U.K. and Nigeria. Should the links to these places be also held accountable and possible links brought to light? I note that the specialist Dr. Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, an eminent obstetrician, practices at St George's hospital, University of London. Surely there is a link between Dr. Monaghan and Dr. Sabaranam – BOTH of them practiced in the U.K.!

I doubt if Prof O' Dwyer is still lecturing etc due to his age but on the Symposium he lists himself as Professor Emeritus. He was Chair of the symposium and Dr. Monaghan was a speak at that symposium.

So two professionals, albeit one retired but we shall hold him with equal scepticism none-the-less, were speaking at a conference. Is this now a sinister act, frowned upon? If so I must cancel my participation in these henceforth. I’m not in the medical profession but I just wanted to stay on the safe side of things.

The two men are linked also on two different bodies.

I am a member of some professional bodies should I await the same bar stool jury judgement if another members firm makes mistake?

In addition and it was not pointed out on the radio yesterday, Dr. Monagan helped draft the 2009 medical guidelines on abortion. Some people might be surprised to learn, as I was that they amount to one solitary page.

Ah so it’s an inside job; he gave his medical expertise for guidelines but obviously this means they didn’t consult anyone else and listened to his moral rather than medical facts. (Adjusts tin foil hat in case Dr. Monaghan has adapted telemetry)
In your medical opinion, or lack thereof, should the guidelines be 10 pages, 20 pages or 1000 pages. I only ask about the page numbers because you haven’t really addressed what is in the guidelines – quantity not quality right, what was the font size used by the way?

On my reading of them, and someone might correct me too on this, they amount to naugt.

Thankfully they don’t really on members of the public to yay or nay medical guidelines. I, for one, am thankful for that. What did you expect, Dr. Monaghan and his evil cronies to go re-write the guidelines off their own bat, ignoring the legal status of the matter. Again I am thankful they can’t do that.

So we are basically left with the Supreme Court judgement etc. Not very helpful to women to know their rights or doctors their duty. I have been amazed in the past week with the medical professionals telling us that the situation of what to do is absolutely cristal clear to them. How can it be if we have no legislation. No doctor has pointed out that their medical guidelines do not carry any legal weight (also open to correction on this).

I do wish the courts would stop interfering in our lives. Why yesterday I caught my neighbour cycling with no light, now the courts say I shouldn’t have knocked him down to teach him a lesson him but again here’s where we disagree.
If doctors don’t know the legal parameters that they are to work within I think they would be hesitant to even address an in-grown toe nail, let alone a complicated procedure.

Catholic ethos of Hospital

As far as I know there is no official Catholic ethos at Galway in the formal sense. It was never run by a religious order (I'm open to correction on this). But this does not mean that the staff of particularly Irish origin are statistically bound to be coming from traditional Catholic stock. I have no issue with anyone's religion but it is naive to assume that a hospital or indeed any institution in Ireland is not 'Catholic' just because it is not officially so.

Crafty beggers’ the Catholics, It’s not a Catholic Hospital, never was a Catholic hospital, never shown aspirations to be perceived as a Catholic hospital but the Catholics are in there on the ground really running the show unbeknownst to hospital management, in fact it’s not a hospital at all its a catholic indoctrination centre.
Questions asked prior to consenting to a child to be born include;
“Is this an immaculate conception or the regular kind?”
“If regular; did conception occur whilst parties were in the missionary position, lights off to avoid eye contact and the radio on full blast do the 14 other blessed children in the house didn’t know what sins are being committed”
“Or was it FORNICATION that caused this mess you find yourself in”

Symoposium
It is quite clear to me that this conference was run to a specific agenda. To prove that abortion is never necessary to save a pregnant women.

What is quite clear is that you’re so emotionally wrapped up in this that you can’t see you’re wrong even when it’s printed in black and white.
They presented new research on issues surrounding maternal healthcare, with a focus on high-risk pregnancies, cancer in pregnancy, foetal anomalies, mental health and maternal mortality. Have you looked at what research they presented?
“As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman”
They’ve clarified that hitting the abort button won’t cure all that ails and that there are other options now available. Perhaps you’d prefer if they stopped all this research nonsense and just shot the little deformities as they popped out.

So from my reading of it medical professionals who had an anti abortion agenda held a conference to prove this very 'fact'.

Medical professionals held a conference, 2 out 140 there ( less than 1%) you state as being anti-abortion, despite stating this was not a prolife etc. gathering but rather a gathering of medical professionals including experts in obstetrics and gynaecology, mental health and molecular biology.

Medically, and as previously stated I'm not medically, trained their 'Dublin Declaration' is nonsense.

I’m glad to see you’re medical training trumps the training of those 140 professionals and you can just summarise their expertise, experience research and conclusions in one word.

Abortion is absolutely sometimes necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman. These occurances are rare.

They haven’t denied that. You are just spelling out that subsequent to further research, there are now other options. Again doctors can’t really make up their own rules and laws as they go, they do have to consult with the applicable laws of the land etc. Frankly I think we’re better to stay with this. If something needs changed then consult with all of us. I know this doesn’t fit well with your argument but why let the facts get in the way eh. Just keep shouting “nonsense, with fingers in ears and it’ll be fine.

Fear of Irish doctors
You may be assured that one should have a healthy respect for the power of doctors when you are in a life or death situation. I did not give birth in Ireland, and I've had both natural and caesarian. But I do have siblings and relations who have given birth in Ireland, including the Galway hospital. Like truthseeker I too was judged when young and to live it is to know it. Luckily for various reasons I knew where to go. So my fear is deeply held. I've seen what Neary did, I've seen what happened over the years in various horrific stories that I'm not going to go into on here.

I’ve suffered at the hands of teachers, therefore all teachers are bullies
I’ve met some of the most obnoxious members of An Garda Siochana, therefore all members show the same level of insolence.
I’ve met some of the most inconsiderate undertakers et. Etc.

I don’t accept these leaps in to exaggeration. People are different, you meet some good some bad in every walk of life. You’re portraying every Irish doctor as an old fashioned judgemental abortionist. That is wrong.

It's my belief that if Ms. Halappanavar had been Irish she would have had a better chance because they didn't 'get it' about Catholic Ireland.

That’ll be the Catholics again, so they are racists now as well then in the hospital.
Again your assumption here is way off reality; she was constantly monitored, even a friend of hers who is a doctor was checking in on her.

Her husband should have screamed blue murder or called in another professional

You are assuming he knew something that the medical staff did not; if that’s the case is he not equally culpable for not acting sooner himself as you put it?

or called in a relation who was a doctor to get on the case

Nothing like a bit of racism to add to it; they are Indian, must have a few members of the family that are doctors, well the ones that didn’t open up a corner shop or curry house anyway.

or got in a taxi and gone to another hospital.

Like Portiuncla hospital...but wait there’s a link there.
Another Irish hospital operates under the same Irish law regarding abortion.

That's what an educated Irish person would have done. They were probably too polite or trusting to do so.

You’re just being patronising now. The little uneducated Indian was put in the cupboard and told not to speak?
Both he and his wife were well educated.
You state that “That is what an educated Irish person would’ve done” does that mean because they were educated they again should’ve know what was going on and magically done something about it. Are they then not culpable in some form?

Most unfortunately for him, and he's being helped by a good Irish solicitor, he gets it now.

And how is he a good solicitor in your legal opinion. If legal training is the same as medical, I’ll just ignore that comment.

But it's too late. But maybe not too late for the rest of us. 30 years is too long.

Unfortunately, laws guidelines, rules etc. usually arrive from necessity after the fact. Countries are rarely formed with a full set of guidelines that will never have to be re-addressed according to changes in society. Otherwise we’d still be in the dark ages.

So I support him every step of the way.

I’m sure he’ll appreciate your medical opinions – research = nonsense.

This is an extremely contentious issue and I want everyone who speaks on this matter to declare their agenda before they speak.

So we must declare what side of the fence we are on before we dare speak? Why do we have to answer to you on this?
I don’t have an agenda. It is an important debate that will have long lasting social implications.

Out of respect for Ms. Halappanavar. And I think I've a right as an Irish women who has given birth to know what agendas other people have for me and other Irish women.

Newstalk broadcasts to the nation so to me it is the national airwaves

It’s an independent station with a Journalist expressing and opinion; As that differs from your opinion it is to be considered “spin” and “Hidden agenda’s”. To add to that because they are male, they are arrogant and talking down to you.

I've not seen Primetime but I did hear part of the interview.

What must it be like to lose your wife and unborn child, believing that if the doctors had intervened earlier she, your beloved wife, could have been saved.

What if it wasn’t a beloved wife, does that make a difference? What relevance has it, or are you just setting the mood for a good story line to accompany the pro-abortion agenda.

Believing maybe that you'd done something wrong, believing maybe if you'd taken her to another hospital she could have been saved. After the trauma of that, after being comforted by the hospital staff, after having to arrange to transport your wife's body back to India.

Again the relevance of this? It’s as if you are trying to ghost write for the gentleman to add weight to your argument.

After having to get a death certificate to allow transportation of the body, a death certificate that was difficult to obtain,

This was mentioned in the media, and if true, was wrong, very wrong.

and then arriving in India to your parents and family and your wife's family. How would you explain that you were in a first world country and that your wife had died for lack of basic medical attention. How for two weeks you were questioned by your own family and hers on every minutiae of every detail of every moment of your one week of hell, of your life ahead without her and what might have been and of your exhaustion and trauma of bringing her body home.

You know nothing of what happened. Do you think this is some sort of novella you’re conjuring up here? It’s more disrespectful than anything else.

And you were sure before you left Ireland that something would be done about what happened and you had been assured it would be so, and you told this every day to your family and to hers and every day nothing.

Do you know he expected a resolution in the space of a few weeks? This is not the type of legislation we need knee-jerk reaction on.

So finally you cracked

So Mr. Hallappanavar has cracked now? I was actually admiring his dignified and calm response to all of this. You are insulting the man now.

you realised actually they are going to do nothing, and actually those that are telling you they would have an inquiry, have while you were gone done nothing, and you'd slowly realise that those who told you there would be an inquiry, they were actually the ones responsible for what happened.

This is new to me. So we’ve just closed the book on this and there will be no enquiries?

What would you do, what could you do. What should you do. What is one man against a whole establishment and against forces of which you know nothing about.

Or get a solicitor on board, a good solicitor by your accounts. Realise that the inquiry will take more than a week and a quick fire ‘hang ‘em all’ at dawn inquisition. I’d prefer if the right people were installed on the panel with careful consideration, records compiled, witnesses etc. etc. you know to ensure the truth was uncovered.

Well then Ireland and the HSI has underestimated poor brave Praveen Halappanaver.

How exactly? I think the outpouring of emotion by the public alone has shown that this has also greatly affected the populace.

He had kept his dignified silence in the midst of his grief

Wait, I thought he cracked in the last chapter of this shocking tale you’ve conjured.

and he in memory of his wife spoke to the only outlet he had, the Irish Times.

Hold on, in chapter 1, the national media had hidden agendas and spin etc. now they are in cahoots? I smell a mackerel.

And was he right, oh so right as been proved by the actions of the HSE, the Minister for Health, James Reilly, the Department of Health,

Right about what now??

even to our eternal shame our Taoiseach Enda Kenny, who in a most unedifying manner yesterday in the Dail appealed over his chosen mode of communication via his solicitor, directly to the man himself.

Is it not more sincere for the leader of the country to express his sympathy directly or should he also have gone through the Irish Times, as that was the only outlet he had.

How insulting that the leader of our country could make such a spectacle of himself. That he should say to that poor grieving man, 'I know you are a decent man.' What is wrong with politicians that they would do such a thing. How ashamed I was yesterday to be Irish.

It’s more insulting that you’ve drafted this tale of woe out of thin air. You seem to think that by conjuring this tale, this emotional diatribe, you somehow have a kinship with the victim? It’s deplorable. Ashamed to be Irish over this, pray tell which nation without sin will you profess love for tomorrow so?

How ashamed I've been to see comments about India, most grievous comments made about the grieving husband and his motives. Unprintable comment. Shocking comment. Insulting comment.

Your ‘tale of woe’ has been up there with the most insulting comments I have seen.

It is true, we are medieval and barbaric.

Yes of course we are. This one incident has sent us right back to the dark ages.
Hysterics have no place in a debate. Nice choice of words though, barbaric really lends toward you argument that any other argument is something from the dark side, ill-thought out, out dated etc.

And until we stand up to this we have progressed not one jot from the mind-set that went before.

Well why didn’t you bring it up sooner so?

Last night I kissed my lovely Irish children in their beds and thought how has it come to this.

What has being Irish got to do with it? How has it come to what exactly? It isn’t then end of the world. Hyperbole of the highest order.

How again have our leaders failed us. How have we failed by allowing that failure to continue. That's why I've commented on here, but I guess I'm talking to myself.

Who installed those leaders? Why aren’t you one of the ‘leaders’ so if they have failed us. Also who installs these leaders?

I wrote a paper many years ago on euthanasia – very similar to this topic – on emotional and social levels; it boils down to whether society accepts it is willing to play “God” in deciding life. But what is life? Some maintain life is the heartbeat from a 3month old foetus. Others maintain life is jumping from planes at 15,000 feet/climbing vertical rock faces with no rope and anything else is merely existence.

Is a child with severe motor-neuron deficiencies including mental deficiencies, requiring 24hr care really life or is it an existence that they have no escape from?

All these questions must be answered. Not just a quick fix to suit the recent events.
I also note the women going for abortions in these are always making it under severe stress/duress or in dire medical needs – It never get’s floated that Some women might just be too damn naive and irresponsible and only too happy to get rid of the life they’ve created. Doesn’t really fit the bill for pro-abortionists that it might be a facility used and abused by some. Not a statement but something that should be brought in to consideration.

 

[truthseeker]

I also note the women going for abortions in these are always making it under severe stress/duress or in dire medical needs – It never get’s floated that Some women might just be too damn naive and irresponsible and only too happy to get rid of the life they’ve created. Doesn’t really fit the bill for pro-abortionists that it might be a facility used and abused by some. Not a statement but something that should be brought in to consideration.

tldr - except the last bit.

There is really no debate to be had with someone who actually thinks that a woman would blithely be only too happy to get rid of the life they have created (btw they didnt create it on their own, there would have been a man involved too).

Seriously - is this what you think? Do you think any woman chooses to pay the financial, emotional and physical cost of travelling to another country to undergo a medical procedure easily and as though its no big deal?

If thats really what you think, I can only conclude you really dont know anything about women or abortion at all.

On the notion of the facility being used and abused by some (btw the correct term is pro-choice, pro-abortion is an inaccurate term which implies that abortion is the correct choice in all circumstances), there is no element of use and abuse if something is a choice. Its only when you are trying to make someone feel that they are morally wrong that that term is relevant. And really, what I choose to do with my body and how I conduct my private morality, is no one elses business but my own.

 

[Latrade]

The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.

Broadsheet.ie has a little something special from Prof O'Dwyer here . I suppose you could argue his quotes were taken out of conext or in reference to a 14 year-old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant he actually called it "consensual, an act of unlawful carnal knowledge".

 

[Bronte]

tldr - except the last bit.

I had to look up tldr. It means that when something is too long it's very hard to follow.

 

[Bronte]

All these questions must be answered. Not just a quick fix to suit the recent events.

Thank you for your comments bullbars,they are very interesting, and as I said earlier it's important that there is debate on this issue. As your reply was very long it's exceedingly difficult for me to answer but here is my attempt in any case.

Medical guidelines

Dr. Monaghan is medical expert not a legal expert, so the medical guidelines he helped draft are not the law in Ireland. That's what I mean about them amounting to naught legally. The 1800's act, the constitutional amendment and the Supreme court judgement are the law on abortion in Ireland.

Two Masters at two of Ireland leading maternal hospitals have confirmed that this is a grey area. The anti- abortions have been very clear that it is in fact not a grey area. Who do you think is correct?

You comment

“Or was it FORNICATION that caused this mess you find yourself in”

My reply to this is :

In fact I have absolutely nothing to say to that comment, it makes its own comment quite adequately.

My emotions on this topic

- Savita Halappanavar, refused termination, dead in the leading maternal hospital in the west of Ireland

- Grainne, audience of Primetime this week, 7 weeks pregnant, physically appeared as though she was 6 months pregnant due to major internal problems, refused medical tests due to being pregnant, finally they went in, if they didn't she too would be dead

- Joe Duffy's Liveline, too many real women's stories to list

- Michelle Harte, pregnant, ill with cancer, refused cancer treatment due to pregnancy, her consultant wanted to abort but couldn’t due to the grey area, so an 'ad hoc' ethics committee was formed to decide, abortion refused, she had to be physically helped onto a plane to the UK to get an abortion. She too is dead as is her unborn child.

- Anne Lovett, pregnant young teenager, died giving birth alone in a cold graveyard, no one knew she was pregnant

- Joanne Hayes, hiding a shameful pregnancy, gave birth probably alone, buried baby in garden, Gardaí found another baby a few miles away, accused her of murdering the second baby, initially they wouldn't look where she said her actual baby was buried, and later when they did tried to 'medically' prove they were twins. Result 2 dead babies that were found and a women left traumatised forever. There were of course many other dead babies all over the Irish countryside. As far as I recall the infamous Kerry babies tribunall didn't go into that.

I am not emotional I am ashamed of the above, and ashamed of myself for not having done more on this issue and ashamed of Irish people who continue to allow it to happen. Exporting the problem to the UK is shameful. Even if I were emotional on this topic, so what, I'm an emotional woman. Why is that thrown at me as though there is something wrong with being emotional. Do you think that being emotional means I'm not rational?

Social abortions

I recognise that some women are not careful and get themselves pregnant. I note that you never once mentioned that it was a man that got them pregnant. Where is the man's responsibility in this 'fornication' as you refer to it as. There is nothing going to stop people getting pregnant and having an abortion to deal with that.

There is no solution to this but this is not a justification for not allowing abortion in rape, incest, foetal abnormality, cancer/illness etc. in a pregnant woman.

Do you think that because some women are as you put it 'too damn naïve and irresponsible', that is an answer to the women I listed above. Was Anne Lovett too damn naïve and irresponsible? Or Michelle Harte, or Savita Halappanavar.

Society playing God

Isn't that what the doctors in Ireland do when they weight up the life of a mother versus the life of the unborn?

Symposium

Can you tell me who the 140 experts at this conference were ?

Can you show me the 'Dublin Declaration' signed by all the leading medical experts at this conference?

Can you show me where the new medical findings have been peer reviewed?

Can you show me where the 'medical findings' that abortion is never necessary to save a mother's life is documented as fact in a leading medical publication such as the Lancet?

 

[Purple]

George Hook interview with John Monaghan, Consultant, Portinucula Hospital Monday the 19th Nov

I felt I was in a time warp yesterday when I heard this interview. Busy doing the kids dinner and listening to this, but I really felt we had gone back 30 years with two arrogant men talking down to us mere plebs. If anyone else heard it could they confirm that I have not misunderstood the programme.

George launched into an attack on India, and an extraordinary outburst on Clare Daly, with radio clips to I think prove that she is some kind of crazy warrior for women - really brings one back to what went before when this all started 3 decades ago.

I really sat up and listened when he interview John Monaghan, Gyn & Obe. George was at pains to point out that Portinucula, Co. Galway is in no way linked to Galway Hospital, but the name John Monaghan rang a bell with me as I had studied abortion last week and amazing enough John Monaghan was a speaker at a symposium on the 8th Sept held in Dublin. Here is a link to the Irish times article on the symposium (conference).

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html

The ostensible point of the interview was to prove that us women are well served by Irish doctors and have nothing to fear. That India is a 3rd world country in comparison with us and that we need to fear the likes of Clare Daly. It was brain washing of the highest order in my opinion.

What was not pointed out is that there is indeed a link between John Monaghan and the Galway hospital. The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.

What was the conclusion of the conference:

As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

Now come on George you can do better than that, you could have pointed out that John Monaghan is indeed linked to Galway Hospital via his relationship with Prof O' Dwyer and both according to the Irish times article are anti-abortion campaigners. When you're up against apparent spin in the national media and indeed hidden agendas would anyone be surprised that Mr. Haleppenavar doesn't want any medical professional from the county of Galway on the enquiry.

I'm not a fan of George Hook (in the same way I'm not a fan of being burned alive) but I agree with him on this. I think that's a first for me.

 

[Bronte]

I'm not a fan of George Hook (in the same way I'm not a fan of being burned alive) but I agree with him on this. I think that's a first for me.

What is it you agree with him about? India's abortion record being relevant to the Galway case and his opinion of Clare Daly ?

 

[Bronte]

Broadsheet.ie has a little something special from Prof O'Dwyer here . I suppose you could argue his quotes were taken out of conext or in reference to a 14 year-old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant he actually called it "consensual, an act of unlawful carnal knowledge".

That's quite an extraordinary document. Prof O' Dwyer has actually written that the infamous rape victim Ms. X got pregnant 'after consensual intercourse with a grown man.' The perpetrator in that case was jailed for rape, how can he write that it was consensual. After all she went though he would tell untruths about what happened to her. Has he no morals about writing such an untruth.

What is even more amazing is the end paragraph on page 5 which states that no doctor in Ireland can ever do an abortion. Following the Supreme Court judgment legally one can but because it would be against Medical Council guidelines. Therefore if any doctor were to do so they would be guilty of professional misconduct and that doctor would be erased from the Medical Registar (and you cannot practice without that)

Doctors therefore have to ignore the law and abide instead by the medical council guidelines instead. So in a case such as the one in Galway, if a doctor decided to do an abortion and thought he was within the law, and was actually within the law, he still could notcarry out an abortion because he would be struck off. That's not a grey area for doctors that's a nightmare scenario for them.

Does O' Dwyers interpretation of the Guidlines still apply I wonder. Someone ought to ask the Medical Council.