Another abortion referendum?

[Bronte]

I do not doubt that some men would be glad if abortion facilities were available in Ireland, to save face and/or financial support.
Why would you have "No doubt" they'd vote against it then?

I should have used the word some men. I did not mean to imply that all men would pay for an abortion and then vote against abortion. Equally there are presumably women who've had abortions who have voted against abortion.

In relation to Gestapo like questioning of women going to the UK, why did we vote on the right to travel for abortion?

Do you think groups like Youth Defense would like to ban travel also? And that they actually probably believe women should be checked on whether one is pregnant or not if they are travelling. The reason we have the right to travel for abortion was brought about because of the X case. The Irish people by constitutional amendment voted to allow women freedom to travel for abortion. If they had not what would the state have to do to prevent women travelling for abortion?

 

[MrMan]

Well it does have a bearing on the discussion because only women who can afford to travel for an abortion can have a safe one.

It is also hypocritical for people to say that they do not want safe abortion available in this country but they dont mind if women travel. Surely if someone thinks abortion is wrong, its wrong regardless of geography.

It has no bearing in that we are talking about the laws of our pwn country. People keep bringing up how hypocritical it is that we have women crossing the water every week to have abortions, but that is their choice; it has no bearing on whether or not Ireland chooses to allow abortion to be readily available. I hope I am being clear now.
I agree on the hypocrisy in your second paragraph.

 

[truthseeker]

It has no bearing in that we are talking about the laws of our pwn country. People keep bringing up how hypocritical it is that we have women crossing the water every week to have abortions, but that is their choice; it has no bearing on whether or not Ireland chooses to allow abortion to be readily available. I hope I am being clear now.
I agree on the hypocrisy in your second paragraph.

I understand what you are saying.

 

[MrMan]

And do you think it's ok that they can travel for abortion?

I do, and I'm not against the right to choose in Ireland either, I'm just hoping that a reasonable debate on the subject can be had, because it is an important subject for all, and should be considered as such.

 

[delgirl]

Has anyone who has been an ardent 'right to life' advocate been swayed by the Savita case and others into believing that legistation and regulation on this issue is needed?

On speaking to a relative, who has always been totally anti-abortion for any reason, he is now of the mindset that it should be legislated for and permitted in certain circumstances.

 

[Firefly]

Has anyone who has been an ardent 'right to life' advocate been swayed by the Savita case and others into believing that legistation and regulation on this issue is needed?

I wouldn't be an "ardent 'right to life' advocate" or anythiing, but legislating for suicide just doesn't sit comfortably with me as I think it could be open to abuse by the woman or subjectivity by the doctor..

 

[Bronte]

Has anyone who has been an ardent 'right to life' advocate been swayed by the Savita case and others into believing that legistation and regulation on this issue is needed?

.

Yes, my mother. She was anti abortion and Savita's case made her say enough is enough. I wouldn't think she was an ardent 'right to life' advocate though.

 

[T McGibney]

Funny how the Government is now rushing to legislate before the facts of the Savita case have been established.

 

[michaelm]

. . legislating for suicide just doesn't sit comfortably with me as I think it could be open to abuse by the woman or subjectivity by the doctor..

It is patent nonsense to suggest that abortion is an appropriate treatment for mental health issues.

 

[Bronte]

but legislating for suicide just doesn't sit comfortably with me as I think it could be open to abuse by the woman

Would it be more important to know why a woman would be willing to lie? To go through the hoops that the government will decide on in order to prove that one is suicidal.

Why do the anti abortion groups believe that many many Irish women will lie. Are we women such awful human beings that we will lie in order to procure an abortion.

Are we different to men in that respect.

 

[Bronte]

Funny how the Government is now rushing to legislate before the facts of the Savita case have been established.

Funnily enough I've heard many people say the Savita case had nothing to do with it, that every medical treatment is available to women in Ireland. Why do we need the facts of her story to legislate, is 20 years not long enough, is a European judgement not enough? What rush? I see no rush? Don't you think we should legislate for what Irish people decided by constitutional amendments.

 

[Firefly]

Would it be more important to know why a woman would be willing to lie? To go through the hoops that the government will decide on in order to prove that one is suicidal.

Why do the anti abortion groups believe that many many Irish women will lie. Are we women such awful human beings that we will lie in order to procure an abortion.

Are we different to men in that respect.

Hi Bronte,

All valid questions and I don't know the answer. I'm just saying that IMO it could be abused by even 1 woman looking for an abortion and therefore why should we legislate for something where we know this in advance? The current system is bad enough without introducting more ambiguity and subjectivity.

Firefly.

 

[Firefly]

It is patent nonsense to suggest that abortion is an appropriate treatment for mental health issues.

How do you know?

 

[Purple]

Would it be more important to know why a woman would be willing to lie? To go through the hoops that the government will decide on in order to prove that one is suicidal.

Why do the anti abortion groups believe that many many Irish women will lie. Are we women such awful human beings that we will lie in order to procure an abortion.

Are we different to men in that respect.

A minority of men and women will lie to get what they want. I don’t think anyone thinks anything other than a tiny proportion of women would do what you suggest. That’s not the point though; laws have to take such scenarios into account.

 

[truthseeker]

I don’t think anyone thinks anything other than a tiny proportion of women would do what you suggest.

Rather than bother lying the current exportation of the problem to the UK will carry on. There may be some genuine cases where women pass the suicide test guidelines, and there may be some cases where women try it because they can not easily afford to go to the UK. But ultimately it wont change much.

 

[michaelm]

How do you know?

Studies confirm that abortion is linked to an increased risk of suicide. The argument of 'let me take the life of my unborn child or else I'll take my own life' doesn't stand up.

 

[truthseeker]

Studies confirm that abortion is linked to an increased risk of suicide. The argument of 'let me take the life of my unborn child or else I'll take my own life' doesn't stand up.

According to other studies

For women with unplanned pregnancies, the risk of mental-health problems is equal whether they carry the pregnancy to term or undergo an abortion.

There are numerous links, but the main ones are available from that wikipedia page I linked to.

From the same page

A 2008 systematic review of the medical literature on abortion and mental health found that high-quality studies consistently showed few or no mental-health consequences of abortion, while poor-quality studies were more likely to report negative consequences.

and

In December 2011, the U.K. National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health published a systematic review of available evidence, similarly concluding that abortion did not increase the risk of mental-health problems.

Of course

Despite the weight of medical opinion on the subject, some pro-life advocacy groups have continued to allege a link between abortion and mental-health problems.

 

[T McGibney]

Funnily enough I've heard many people say the Savita case had nothing to do with it, that every medical treatment is available to women in Ireland. Why do we need the facts of her story to legislate, is 20 years not long enough, is a European judgement not enough? What rush? I see no rush? Don't you think we should legislate for what Irish people decided by constitutional amendments.

No, I see no pressing need to legislate on the basis of a 20-year old Supreme Court judgment, nor on the basis of a concocted interpretation of previous constitutional amendments.

 

[oldnick]

As a slight aside...

Perhaps those who wish to deny a woman's right to choose could advise me on the following...

Looking at the fifty USA states - some have quite strict anti-abortion regimes whereas some are quite liberal. Generally, the most liberal are in the North-East and on the West Coast.

Looking at those USA states that have abolished legally killing people (or capital punishment) it's almost the other way round.

Again, gun-control . Most anti-abortion states tend to have the most liberal gun-control laws.

It seems odd that those who are so much in favour of "life" also favour of capital punishment and no gun control. I think most of us already know that the most "conservative" Americans hold these views. I believe that many of them hold other views that makes their strong pro-life stance surprising.

I'm not suggesting that so-called pro-life posters on AAM (mainly men?) are those most likely to be Tea Party believers in death penalties, liberal gun controls, racist and homophobic tendencies which many pro-lifers in USA seem to have.

Looking world-wide: In those Latin American, Middle-Eastern and African states with anti-abortion laws, the position of women -both culturally and often legally- takes a second place to that of men, there are often horrific anti-gay laws, and, often, respect for human rights is minimal.

So, looking at the USA and more world-wide it appears that those with this "pro-life" attitude are really very much the opposite.

It's just an observation and very general one. I'm not talking about Ireland where most pro-life champions such as the Roman Catholic clergy are,of course, very much in favour of equal rights for women ,gays and such basic rights as,say, contraception. It's the other countries that have this hypocritical attitude,not here.

I just can't get my head around the contradication of those who scream about the sanctity of human life tending to show so little regard for it.

 

[T McGibney]

To be blunt I think that's a risible, and rather insulting, correlation. Someone else might as well claim that the Irish pro-choice lobby all wish to oppress women on the basis that certain countries with pro-abortion lobbies and policies have very poor women's rights and a particularly creepy taste for aborting female babies.