What will happen when/if the PService deal is rejected?

[Complainer]

Idle speculation? Ok, I need some clarification of my own at this stage if you don't mind.

Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying that the link/text from Mpsox/Howitzer is simply a fabrication?

Since I know you have issues with the Indo are you honestly claiming that you have not heard of this yourself via other media?

Ok then, let me try it a 3rd time, since you didn't seem to get it the first two times, when I said;

That doesn't say anything about the union being 'short on funds' as Caveat has claimed.

You claimed that the unions were short on funds. It is now clear that you had no justification for this claim, beyond some idle speculation from right-wing media.

That article does not say anything about the union being short on funds. In fact, the says that ;

[broken link removed]'s two biggest public service unions have been building up huge war chests ahead of possible strike action.

So come on, make your mind up, which Indo article would you like me to believe today?

 

[Firefly]

SIPTU has 50m in reserves and Impact has 25m. Surely an act of patriotism would be for them to invest this in the Solidarity bond

As these bosses of these are getting huge salaries/bonuses and perks, perhaps the PS should be striking against their own union!

 

[Caveat]

Ok then, let me try it a 3rd time, since you didn't seem to get it the first two times, when I said

You can try it as many times as you like. You seem to have some silly pedantic issue with the specific phrase 'short on funds'. You know what I am saying. I have no interest in discussing it further.

That article does not say anything about the union being short on funds. In fact, the

My beloved Indo?

Unlike, it seems some PS workers and union apologists (many of whom only started disliking the Indo when they were told to), I happen to think it's a very poor paper and always have done. This of course does not mean that everything printed in it is a lie.

Which leads me to...

So come on, make your mind up, which Indo article would you like me to believe today?

Oh the irony. Have a quick look through this site and see how many times PS defenders have whined on about it being a 'rag' and 'anti-PS' etc only to miraculously develop the ability to accept an article as long as it supports their view.

Re the the 'war chest' story - haven't heard until now. Doesn't really matter since there is almost a year between the two articles and things can change. The news about the unions losing millions via risky investments was certainly not limited to the Indo. But if you don't accept it maybe you can do your own research.

 

[Complainer]

You can try it as many times as you like. You seem to have some silly pedantic issue with the specific phrase 'short on funds'. I have no interest in discussing it further.

Glad to see that we're agreed that there was no basis for this claim.

Unlike, it seems some PS workers and union apologists (many of whom only started disliking the Indo when they were told to), I happen to think it's a very poor paper and always have done. This of course does not mean that everything printed in it is a lie.

Which leads me to...

Oh the irony. Have a quick look through this site and see how many times PS defenders have whined on about it being a 'rag' and 'anti-PS' etc only to miraculously develop the ability to accept an article as long as it supports their view.

Again, great to see that we are in agreement. It is a rag, and I don't really believe anything they say. When you see two completely contradictory headlilnes from articles just two months apart, it completely exposes the complete lack of any journalistic standard.

And indeed, you are right that many people were a bit late in realising this, though I'm not sure what is meant by 'when they were told do'. I'm kind-of surprised that there hasn't been some proposal from the unions for a boycott of the rag, given their strong anti-union bias. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has 'been told to' dislike the Indo, but maybe you know different.

Re the the 'war chest' story - haven't heard until now. Doesn't really matter since there is almost a year between the two articles and things can change. The news about the unions losing millions via risky investments was certainly not limited to the Indo. But if you don't accept it maybe you can do your own research.

Two months between the two articles, not a year. If I had to go do my own research for every unfounded anti-union claim here on AAM, I really wouldn't have time to work/rest/play. It would be a full-time job in itself, so I'll decline your kind offer on that one.

 

[Purple]

My beloved Indo?

Unlike, it seems some PS workers and union apologists (many of whom only started disliking the Indo when they were told to), I happen to think it's a very poor paper and always have done. This of course does not mean that everything printed in it is a lie.

Which leads me to...



Oh the irony. Have a quick look through this site and see how many times PS defenders have whined on about it being a 'rag' and 'anti-PS' etc only to miraculously develop the ability to accept an article as long as it supports their view.

Yes, the "your beloved indo" line remins me of a child saying "well why don't your just marry it so!"

+1 on the rest.

 

[Deiseblue]

[

It sounds to me like they did this for the accolades they received and now that the massaging of their egos is no longer being given they are no longer prepared to do it...

And so what that they did this,they didn't have to,they choose to do it,hence the word voluntary.

There are thousands of people who volunteer to do stuff like this.
They are not special just because they are teachers..

These men did it both for the love of the game and to help the kids in their charge for over 20 years and to suggest otherwise is simply unfair.

They are angry , disillusioned and have now decided that they have done enough , more than enough I would have said.

Perhaps the fact that you are obviously hugely envious of your sister's great job , foreign holidays , two houses and earning power has coloured your observations on teachers.

More luck to her I say !

 

[csirl]

Quote:
QUOTE=Deiseblue;1039442]Perhaps I wasn't quite clear , the two men in question ran the soccer teams on a purely voluntary basis for 20 years and never expected any pay for it.

They mowed and lined pitches , picked up kids and dropped them off and organised refs etc. if anything it cost them a fortune in petrol costs and these guys raised thousandsby fundraising.

While they certainly expected little thanks they did not expect to be denigrated in the media or by members of the public for simply being teachers.

Is it any wonder that after 20 years they have decided to call it quits ?

Indeed it is a stressful job but aas you saw the compensatory elements of the job are very good , these however are the terms and conditions that Government as employer signed up to and which the teachers are entitled to defend.".
It sounds to me like they did this for the accolades they received and now that the massaging of their egos is no longer being given they are no longer prepared to do it...

And so what that they did this,they didn't have to,they choose to do it,hence the word voluntary.

There are thousands of people who volunteer to do stuff like this.
They are not special just because they are teachers..

Just because these teachers quit coaching the school team, it does not mean they quit coaching kids. In most sports there is a shortage of coaches, particularly at underage level. I think it is very plausable that a disgruntled teacher may decide to stop coaching the school team and start coaching a kids team in their local club instead.

 

[RonanC]

The deal has been rejected by the CPSU

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0512/pay.html

 

[thedaras]

These men did it both for the love of the game and to help the kids in their charge for over 20 years and to suggest otherwise is simply unfair.

They are angry , disillusioned and have now decided that they have done enough , more than enough I would have said.

Perhaps the fact that you are obviously hugely envious of your sister's great job , foreign holidays , two houses and earning power has coloured your observations on teachers.

More luck to her I say !

You say they did it for the love of the game and to help the kids in their charge, My point is ,they were prepared to do it for the love of the game and to help the kids as long as their pay wasnt affected,you have said that now that their pay/conditions is affected they are no longer prepared to do it.So you are agreeing with me!

I could have a similar lifestyle to my sister...perhaps better..she could be envious of me,for all you know,I have stated what my sister has,but you do not know what I have.

I may have several foreign holidays, several houses and more earning power than my sister,for all you know,so your unjustified conclusion of my envy, I'm afraid is unfounded..
Like I stated earlier but you perhaps missed is that I have had 44 combined years of experience of kids in school,but you obviously don't feel that gives me any insight into teachers ,rather its my envy of my sister,what an unusual conclusion to draw..

The childish thing of oh your just jealous is what I hear from my ten year and his friends.. You could apply this to absolutely every argument,ie; the bank workers got a pay rise,we complain, but they say we are just jealous.
The PS have jobs for life etc,we complain,they answer your just jealous etc etc.
So lets not complain about anyone ,because its not that we think its wrong its just because we are jealous..hilarious.
Draw your own conclusions...

 

[Caveat]

Two months between the two articles, not a year.

Complainer, the references to losses were according to 2008 accounts.

 

[Deiseblue]

Let's see how I drew my conclusions.

The point I made was that due to anger , bitterness and disillusionment two teacher friends of mine had decided to withdraw from after hours voluntary work with school soccer teams , I also suggested that other teachers of my acquaintance were considering following the same path , I did say that it was sad but that is the reality out there.

As part of your argument you then brought in to the equation your sister's great job , the fact that she swanned off to her second house in France every summer , her short hours and the fact that she made more money from grinds and then we had the comment about cleaning the second house !

You very well have have a better lifestyle and own more property than your sister ( as you say I know nothing about you ) but as a blind man can see your tone of envy/begrudgery suggests otherwise.

 

[thedaras]

The following is how I drew my conclusion;
Your point re the teachers anger etc you said was due to anger,bitterness and disillusionment.Which once again, (based on your facts they have been doing willingly for 20 years),means that because their pay is affected, they are now withdrawing this service.
To further help make this clear, when they were paid well,ie;not angry bitter disillusioned they did it willingly.
Now what part of that does not conclude that because their pay is affected they will no longer do it?
I feel it is a fair conclusion.

I brought my sisters job into the argument not because she has a totally irrelevant job to the one you speak of,but rather that she has the same job,so it is relevant .

Not because as you state that I am envious of her.These are facts,she does have these things which I state and again its totally relevant and a justified argument ,due to you saying the teachers you speak of will now have time to do little jobs around the house and go for a pint with the missis on a wednesday night.

You then say its my envy,rather than looking at what the issue is about,ie;teachers and their jobs.

You say they are bitter etc,and I used my sisters circumstances to show how well she is doing As a teacher..

It is quite obvious that you are using a red herring.
I find this use of avoidance tactics quite bizarre.
You are concentrating on an illogical conclusion of envy rather than the fact that both the teachers you speak of and my sister have exactly the same jobs,yet you portray them as somewhat different to the reality I experience both from having a family member and 44 combined years of experience.

 

[cork]

The deal has been rejected by the CPSU

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0512/pay.html

My feeling is still the unions will accept the deal.

 

[Latrade]

The following is how I drew my conclusion;
Your point re the teachers anger etc you said was due to anger,bitterness and disillusionment.Which once again, (based on your facts they have been doing willingly for 20 years),means that because their pay is affected, they are now withdrawing this service.
To further help make this clear, when they were paid well,ie;not angry bitter disillusioned they did it willingly.
Now what part of that does not conclude that because their pay is affected they will no longer do it?
I feel it is a fair conclusion.

I think the point being made with the example related partially to pay, but also to the perception of teachers, as given in your example of your sister. Many teachers do extra and put in additional time on a voluntary basis (many others do too in other employment). I took up the example to reflect that it was as much them being tired as being portrayed as workshy and just doing the minimum (as in teachers are paid X amount for X hours with X holidays) and the additional work they put in contributing to school teams etc isn't recognised.

I don't think it unreasonable that those teachers who do put extra effort being annoyed that all are portrayed as workshy, lazy, etc. So as I saw it the pay was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

[Latrade]

My feeling is still the unions will accept the deal.

They're now saying they may have another vote if there is support for the deal from other unions. Lisbon 2 springs to mind.

 

[Shawady]

The deal has been rejected by the CPSU

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0512/pay.html

Have to say, I find it a bit strange the CPSU have rejected this deal.
If there is money to be given back in future years, (and admitidly it is a big if), the lower paid will get preference.
Also, if the government have to target further pay cuts I would not be surprised if lower paid employees were exempt.

 

[thedaras]

I think the point being made with the example related partially to pay, but also to the perception of teachers, as given in your example of your sister. Many teachers do extra and put in additional time on a voluntary basis (many others do too in other employment). I took up the example to reflect that it was as much them being tired as being portrayed as workshy and just doing the minimum (as in teachers are paid X amount for X hours with X holidays) and the additional work they put in contributing to school teams etc isn't recognised.

I don't think it unreasonable that those teachers who do put extra effort being annoyed that all are portrayed as workshy, lazy, etc. So as I saw it the pay was the straw that broke the camel's back.

My point still remains that whatever it was that caused this to happen,it didn't happen before the pay cuts.

In what way do they want recognition? That their pay isn't cut or that we should be full of admiration or that we don't ever criticize them?
And if any of the above happens ..guess what ..we will withdraw our voluntary services from our beloved students.After we strike of course..

Just as well that others still continue to do voluntary work,and are not doing it for recognition. Most of those who volunteer, do so,because they care,and would not stop because they get no credit for it.

Many teachers in fairness will continue to do this,perhaps just one or two will withdraw,and complain and moan that they have better things to do as stated earlier,but most people realize the serious situation the country is in,and may well strike,work to rule ,protest etc,but most wont pull the carpet from under the kids..Thankfully.

 

[Latrade]

My point still remains that whatever it was that caused this to happen,it didn't happen before the pay cuts.

I don't see why this example is such an issue. Just going off your example and the other posts here it isn't just about pay, it's also about workload, hours etc. The general theme being various aspects of the public sector don't do an awful lot for the amount they're paid. So it's more than level of pay, it's working conditions also.

Here was an example where two teachers didn't just do the minimum and facilitated an extra curricular activity in their own time for the last 20 years all of which has been of benefit to pupils and even to the school, you could even argue to some extent (though at a push) the state.

Yes, many people do voluntary work. I've coached rugby for the local team, I've friends who give a lot of time to their GAA clubs, none of this though is linked directly to our work. Parents and pupils want such things as sports teams, music, theatre, or anything such activity and expect the school to provide them.

This is just two people who've put a lot of their own time into school soccer teams off their own backs. Haven't asked for anything and have just got on with it. They then read daily or hear daily just how little they do, how they finish at 2:30, have half the year off in holidays and so on that basis should be paid less.

It's just two teachers who have done extra for the benefit of the school and pupils who haven't asked for anything in the way of recognition or pay and after seeing themselves lumped in with examples like your sister have had enough. I can see their point.

The simple moral being that like a lot of things in life it's the actions (or inactions) of a majority who spoil it for the majority of reasonable, hard working, sensible people.

 

[thedaras]

Every after school activity my kids go to ,is paid for by me.

Latrade;]The simple moral being that like a lot of things in life it's the actions (or inactions) of a majority who spoil it for the majority of reasonable, hard working, sensible people.
Latrade

Couldn't agree with you more ,it is the action or inaction of the MAJORITY who spoil things..

 

[Latrade]

Every after school activity my kids go to ,is paid for by me.

Which probably covers insurances, facilities, and whatever, it doesn't mean it goes into the teacher's pocket.