The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.

"Rte Playback" today recounted the experiences in the Magdalene laundries and industrial schools, from this weeks Joe Duffy show. They were mostly (entirely?) run by the Church AFAIK. The systematic abuse of children by the RC Church went far deeper than just sexual abuse. I heard a TD, Lucinda Creighton I think, say that this was Ireland's Holocaust. I initially thought it was an OTT comparison, but now I'm not so sure she's that far off the mark.

The Vatican is not directly responsible for this I suppose but Christ wouldn't think much of their legalistic handling of the whole affair. If they had real faith in Christ, absolute faith, you would imagine a completely different response. And there's the problem, they don't even adhere to their own beliefs.
 
Interesting contrary view by Breda O'Brien in today's IT. Henda quoted Josef Ratzinger in 1992 as writing that "standards appropriate to civil society or the workings of a democracy cannot be simply applied to the church". Apparently this is quoted hugely out of context. What Benny was referring to was that you don't conduct opinion polls to decide matters of theology. Also Breda points out that the Cloyne report did not say that the Vatican tried to frustrate an inquiry as Henda asserted.

And another thing, where did Henda dig up that obscure piece of writing from 20 years ago. Don't tell me Shatter isn't behind this speech.

It looks to me that Henda (Shatter) was OTT and the wondrous thing is that the vast majority of Irish commenters are lapping it up. The stock price of the RC church has fallen by 99.9% over the last 20 years, even worse than AIB.
 
Latrade said:
Why? It's your assumption that these words are beyond them because they can't read. You assume they've never held a conversation beyond basic English, never watched a television programme that doesn't use anything other than basic English or listened to a radio show.
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That's nowhere near what I said. You're presenting literacy as a binary state, that people either can or can't read and write. That's not the case. There are levels and degrees of literacy.

Latrade said:
Their ability to read does has no influence on their ability to understand the content and context of Enda's speech.
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I just don't understand this. How do you expect them to 'understand the content and context of Enda's speech', if not by reading it?

Latrade said:
There are actors who were illiterate, but who could converse beyond colloquial grunting and fooled their peers for decades on their illiteracy. That's one of the difficulties with illiteracy is that the individuals become skilled at hiding it.
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Any names?

Latrade said:
And as I said before, it's about time we did have a politician stand up and give an intelligent speech and not one designed to appeal to a tabloid public.
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It's quite sad that you feel the need to label people with literacy difficulties as 'tabloid'.

Latrade said:
Sometimes Complainer, there's nothing to actually complain about. Sometimes you can let something go without loose contrary positions doggedly defended to the bitter end.
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As Tina Turner might sing, "It takes two-oooo-oooo, baybeeeeee"
 
Can any of the lawyers on the site offer an opinion as to the possibility of a conviction of some of the bishops etc on the grounds of being an accessory to child abuse? Helping someone to hide the money after they rob a bank is a crime. Covering up the rape of a child and/or facilitating the rapist to rape again should be covered by the same sort of law.
 
horusd said:
"Rte Playback" today recounted the experiences in the Magdalene laundries and industrial schools, from this weeks Joe Duffy show. They were mostly (entirely?) run by the Church AFAIK. The systematic abuse of children by the RC Church went far deeper than just sexual abuse. I heard a TD, Lucinda Creighton I think, say that this was Ireland's Holocaust. I initially thought it was an OTT comparison, but now I'm not so sure she's that far off the mark.

The Vatican is not directly responsible for this I suppose but Christ wouldn't think much of their legalistic handling of the whole affair. If they had real faith in Christ, absolute faith, you would imagine a completely different response. And there's the problem, they don't even adhere to their own beliefs.
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Ruairi Quinn made the point after his meeting with the religous orders last week that the state was probably half responsible for the laundries and industrial schools. In effect, the state mitigated it's social responsibilites to single mothers/ families in difficulties or for difficult/troubled children and handed it over to the religous orders, who then exploited those children for their own profit. It suited the state to sweep these issues under the carpet and it suited those running those schools because they made money out of what in effect was close to slave labour.
 
Purple said:
Can any of the lawyers on the site offer an opinion as to the possibility of a conviction of some of the bishops etc on the grounds of being an accessory to child abuse? Helping someone to hide the money after they rob a bank is a crime. Covering up the rape of a child and/or facilitating the rapist to rape again should be covered by the same sort of law.
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If we're going to go down the path of the Bible and Canonical Law being above State Law, then why not go along with it? Gather them up and stone them.
 
Mpsox said:
Ruairi Quinn made the point after his meeting with the religous orders last week that the state was probably half responsible for the laundries and industrial schools. In effect, the state mitigated it's social responsibilites to single mothers/ families in difficulties or for difficult/troubled children and handed it over to the religous orders, who then exploited those children for their own profit. It suited the state to sweep these issues under the carpet and it suited those running those schools because they made money out of what in effect was close to slave labour.
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The state's hands are far from clean alright. Tho the Church virtually dictated gov't policy in those days. Probably with the consent of the majority of politicans and people. What I wonder tho is how come just so many cruel and sick people ended up running these places? And how come so many of the religious failed so miserably to live up to even the basic notions of Christian love and charity. Beggars belief really.
 
I see the RC Church in the UK is trying to use employment law to avoid financial culpability for the child rapists in their midst. What lovely people.
 
horusd said:
This might well be a snub to Ireland rather than a recognition of a wrong on their part. Given past form, it wouldn't suprise me if its the clerical equivalent of up yours.
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That's quite clearly what it is. As the article says "recall your ambassador" is diplomatic speak for express your displeasure. It's not simply that he has been asked to fly back to Rome, he is doing that all the time without it constituting a "recall". A recall is a formal rebuke.
 
[broken link removed]

The article in the above link in the IT is about a parish priest critising Enda Kenny for his speech he made in the Dail. It compares him to Hitler.

I think the article simply proves everything that Enda said as correct.
 
The_Banker said:
[broken link removed]

The article in the above link in the IT is about a parish priest critising Enda Kenny for his speech he made in the Dail. It compares him to Hitler.

I think the article simply proves everything that Enda said as correct.
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I read this today and was left scratching my head. Particularly this piece;

"Referring to Mr Kenny’s criticisms of the Vatican’s handling of clerical sex abuse, the article stated: “The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler”.

Firstly Kenny didn't attack the Pope he attacked the Vatican. Secondly
this would be the same Vatican that entered a Concordat with Hitler's Reich?
 
horusd said:
I read this today and was left scratching my head. Particularly this piece;

"Referring to Mr Kenny’s criticisms of the Vatican’s handling of clerical sex abuse, the article stated: “The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler”.

Firstly Kenny didn't attack the Pope he attacked the Vatican. Secondly
this would be the same Vatican that entered a Concordat with Hitler's Reich?
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I think it is funny that Enda Kenny reminds someone of Hitler. I can actually see it!
 
I think hEnda was a bit of a patsy, reading a speech that was likely written by another overzealous member of his cabinet. On the face of it hEnda is facing down (long past) Rome rule, but has fully capitulated to Brussels rule. IMHO his speech was politically motivated and may ultimately prove to be ill-advised; still it did relegate the fuss about Roscommon A&E in the newsworthy stakes.
 
horusd said:
Firstly Kenny didn't attack the Pope he attacked the Vatican.
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I thought that perhaps the most vicious and ad hominem part of the speech was where he lambasted a quote (which he took out of context) from a 1992 paper by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The ironic thing is that Benny was a supporter of Adolf in his youth.
 
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