The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.

[RMCF]

Good man Enda, said what so many people in this country have been thinking for a long, long time.

Now if we can just get the church separated from most of the things it seems to control int his country, we can all move on.

Lets start with the education system, so I don't have to pretend to be a Catholic any more just to get my children educated.

 

[Complainer]

Maybe that's where we differ (or should I say yet another place where we differ!) Complainer. I love the richness, colourfulness and breadth of the English language. I love that you can say the same thing a number of different ways. It broadens the mind I feel. So I welcome the language used in the speech.

Hey, we all love literature, in the right context. I'm just not sure that this is the right context. Presumably, Enda's top priority was to convey a message to a target audience. I really think he's let the language become a barrier to that message.

But you still seem to imply that 25% of the country would have difficulty understanding the speech. I fail to see how anyone could have difficulty understanding any of the following:
"The rape and torture of children were downplayed or 'managed' to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and 'reputation'."
"Cloyne's revelations are heart-breaking. It describes how many victims continued to live in the small towns and parishes in which they were reared and in which they were abused. their abuser often still in the area and still held in high regard by their families and the community."
"This report tells us a tale of a frankly brazen disregard for protecting children. If we do not respond swiftly and appropriately as a State, we will have to prepare ourselves for more reports like this."

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point by now!

Most of that quoted section is reasonably good. But I'd bet if you read that out to a bunch of passers-by on O'Connell St, how many of them could explain to you what Enda meant by "the primacy of the institution". When was the last time you used 'primacy' in a conversation or a document? It is unnecessarily flowery and convoluted imho. In fact, you could drop 'the primacy of' from the sentence without losing any meaning.

Just because people might not understand every word in a speech does not mean that they don't understand the message in the speech.

If there are words in the speech that aren't needed to understand the message, why not cut them out mercilessly. Why not cut the 500 word speech to the 100 words that are important?

You seem to either fail to understand this or are simply making an argument about literacy that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed here.

I know that I've gone way off topic here - maybe the mods would like to split?

 

[Sunny]

Complainer has a point. The message that was delivered was great but the speech itself did come across as something written by a script writer on the West Wing. I heard it today for the first time and it was very wordy (if that is even a word!). Like I say though, nothing wrong with the sentiment.

 

[RMCF]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wordy

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The penny has dropped. This is the final act in the Peace Process. Second last act, we had to show that we love the Queen but to really convince our Orange brethren that we are serious about peace we had to show that we hate the Pope.

 

[Sunny]

The penny has dropped. This is the final act in the Peace Process. Second last act, we had to show that we love the Queen but to really convince our Orange brethren that we are setrious about peace we had to show that we hate the Pope.

Time for another 'Love Ulster' parade in Dublin I think...

 

[horusd]

Complainer, your point makes sense. The fact that we're talking about the language used rather than the message proves that at some level. Personally I had to look up "gimlet eye" (deep scrutiny) which I've never heard before. Nonetheless people registered the gist of Enda's speech, and liked it.

 

[Ceist Beag]

I disagree on the language used folks. I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) - that doesn't mean the Taoiseach should follow suit! This is a speech that will be read in decades to come so personally I think it should have a quality of language to last the test of time.

 

[Sunny]

I disagree on the language used folks. I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) - that doesn't mean the Taoiseach should follow suit! This is a speech that will be read in decades to come so personally I think it should have a quality of language to last the test of time.

I don't think anyone is asking him to dumb it down. I think it is just one of those speeches that was clearly written by a speech writer who spent a lot of time agonising on the choice of words. There were bits of the speeech that were pure Enda Kenny, but there were parts that clearly weren't. We probably are being over critical though.

 

[Complainer]

I disagree on the language used folks. I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) - that doesn't mean the Taoiseach should follow suit! This is a speech that will be read in decades to come so personally I think it should have a quality of language to last the test of time.

I can respect different views on this matter, but the underlying issue of literacy is not about 'some statistic'. This is a very real issue for the Irish adult population. See [broken link removed] for details of the research and see [broken link removed] for a more personal understanding of the problems that poor literacy causes.

 

[Ceist Beag]

As I thought we already agreed Complainer, that is a different topic for a different thread. I made no remark about literacy issues in the Irish population, I merely pointed out that this should have no bearing on how such an important speech by our Taoiseach is drafted.

 

[Complainer]

I made no remark about literacy issues in the Irish population,

Actually, you did. By saying " I mean some statistic may show soon that 25% of the people only understand text speak (or should that be txt spk!) ", you trivialised this very important issue.

I merely pointed out that this should have no bearing on how such an important speech by our Taoiseach is drafted.

Absolutely disagree. Enda is Taoiseach for everybody, including the 25% of people who have literacy difficulties. He's not just the Taoiseach for Irish Times readers.

 

[Mpsox]

I have to admit, I'm a little sceptical about Enda's speech. Yes, it was a strong and badly needed speech, but the cynic in me can't help wondering if this was a means of moving the news cycle away from the mess FG/Kenny and the HSE have made of the Roscommon A&E closure and on to something else. The Cloyne report is not the first report on abuse so why didn't Enda make a similar speech when in opposition.?

I'm also not convinced that the mandatory reporting of abuse to the Gardai is necessarily a good thing. Firstly, as the Cloyne reported illustrated, the Gardai have some significant issues to answer over their own performance. As we've also seen in recent weeks in the west, there are question marks over the HSE performance in dealing with abuse issues as well. Therefore for this law to work, the state needs to get it's own act in gear. Secondly, the victim may not pyschologically be in a postion to deal with or want to deal with what has happened. Forcing them to confront an issue like this may not do them good.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Absolutely disagree. Enda is Taoiseach for everybody, including the 25% of people who have literacy difficulties. He's not just the Taoiseach for Irish Times readers.

Sigh, there you go again assuming that those with literacy issues will not understand the content of the speech or think that it is not for them! We're never going to agree on this one and I've said my bit so going to leave it at that.

 

[Bronte]

Have not as yet read the speech. Was talking to the other half today who brought up this subject about Enda's great speech. I said Enda should expel the Papel Nuncio and my OH wondered would I ever be happy. Well my reply is we are talking about the rape of children and no I won't ever be happy until the full extent of the files in the Vatican on all the rapes that we've heard about and not heard about yet are released and dealt with.

In relation to Mpsox's post about giving the Church money. That's exactly what the Church is about, money and power and that's all they are about. They couldn't care less about Africa etc. That's just another place where they freely practice their perversions under the guise of so called holiness.

The church doesn't not the first think about goodness and kindness. They know though about accumulating wealth and power. You don't have to look at the vatican to see that. Look all around everything you do in Ireland and see what little real choice one has.

 

[Mpsox]

In relation to Mpsox's post about giving the Church money. That's exactly what the Church is about, money and power and that's all they are about. They couldn't care less about Africa etc. That's just another place where they freely practice their perversions under the guise of so called holiness.

The church doesn't not the first think about goodness and kindness. They know though about accumulating wealth and power. You don't have to look at the vatican to see that. Look all around everything you do in Ireland and see what little real choice one has.

Are you implying that every missionery who went to Africa didn't care less about Africa and went their to practice their pervisions? Likewise, are you implying that the lay people who give up their time to collect for the St Vincent de Paul and distribute charity to people in need in Ireland are doing so to accumulate wealth and power?

I've no arguement with your view on the Vatican and how protecting themselves and what they perceived to be the "good reputation " of the church was more important then anything else.

 

[Complainer]

Sigh, there you go again assuming that those with literacy issues will not understand the content of the speech or think that it is not for them!

It's hard to see how anyone who would struggle with medicine instructions would not struggle with unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc.

 

[Latrade]

It's hard to see how anyone who would struggle with medicine instructions would not struggle with unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc.

Why? It's your assumption that these words are beyond them because they can't read. You assume they've never held a conversation beyond basic English, never watched a television programme that doesn't use anything other than basic English or listened to a radio show.

Their ability to read does has no influence on their ability to understand the content and context of Enda's speech.

There are actors who were illiterate, but who could converse beyond colloquial grunting and fooled their peers for decades on their illiteracy. That's one of the difficulties with illiteracy is that the individuals become skilled at hiding it.

So yes Enda used a more educated language. That doesn't mean because 25% of the population can't read a prescription they didn't understand the speech. I champion the same cause as you, but you seem intent on keeping this going on the basis that can't read = can't converse and I can't see any reason why.

And as I said before, it's about time we did have a politician stand up and give an intelligent speech and not one designed to appeal to a tabloid public.

Sometimes Complainer, there's nothing to actually complain about. Sometimes you can let something go without loose contrary positions doggedly defended to the bitter end.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Whatever about the populace at large, Henda was speaking to Dail Eireann so he should have dumbed it down a bit. I suppose most of it went over Michael Healy-Rae's head.

 

[Purple]

Can everyone just agree with Complainer on the big issue if literacy so that we can get back to the minor issue of a foreign state acting as an accomplice in the rape of Irish children.