The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.

[onq]

Give me a break. The 80 year old woman going to mass was not covering up sexual assault of children just like 99% of the church going population. I got the end of the Christian brothers experience and while nothing serious happened me, I can for 100% state state that I was taught my a pedophile. I dont blame my patents for this. They had no way to know. The ******* died shortly after but I hate to think of the people he taught before me.

Never mind the 80 year old woman [and your percentages are wayyyy off if the implications of the SAVI Report are to be believed].
What did *you* do about the teacher - did you report him to the authorities, and if not, why not?

 

[onq]

Yes but shouldn't the ordinary catholics be sending a message to the vatican in the only language they respect, i.e. footfall + cash, by abstaining from mass? Thus forcing the church to sit up and take notice and maybe, just maybe implement some real reform.

Of course, and they are - to coin a phrase - "staying away in droves".
Did you not read recently about the levy the church was considering charging to help support the Dublin Diocese in its hour of need?

If it was a non-religious organisation there is no way ordinary people would continue to attend meetings and donate money.

It seems clear that they aren't doing that any more.
The was a steady drift away from the Church in the 'seventies, 'eighties and 'nineties.
This turned into a torrent in the noughties following the revelations of the extent of the paedophilia in the church.

 

[oldnick]

Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.

If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.

Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.

Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.

 

[Firefly]

Give me a break. The 80 year old woman going to mass was not covering up sexual assault of children just like 99% of the church going population. I got the end of the Christian brothers experience and while nothing serious happened me, I can for 100% state state that I was taught my a pedophile. I dont blame my patents for this. They had no way to know. The ******* died shortly after but I hate to think of the people he taught before me.

Hi Sunny,

Not to sensationalise it but we are talking about the act and coverup of raping innocent children by an organisation who pontificates from the pulpit on the teachings of Christ. Imagine for a second how you would feel if it happened to one of your children and you then see your neighbours heading to mass in the same church. How would you feel?

The only way this will be addressed is if people stop going to mass and more importantly stop putting money into the collection box (nothing like money to concentrate the mind).

Oldnick. I've raised "going proddy" with my wife and it's something we certainly won't be ruling out. We both pray but I just find it very difficult to enter a RCC even for celebrations like weddings.

 

[Firefly]

Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.

If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.

Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.

Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.

A big plus one to this oldnick

 

[Teatime]

continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.

Whilst attendance in city churches may be down i notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on sundays -too many irish catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.

+1

 

[T McGibney]

Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.

If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.

Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.

Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.

Ludicrous stuff.

The Irish State was just as guilty as the Irish Catholic Church in facilitating child abusers and covering up for them. Are you still paying your taxes?

 

[onq]

Ludicrous stuff.

The Irish State was just as guilty as the Irish Catholic Church in facilitating child abusers and covering up for them. Are you still paying your taxes?

So far, but I like where you're going with this.

 

[Mpsox]

Sadly too many "ordinary decent " Catholics think that this is all a temporary aberration and they seem not to realise that by actually attending official RC churches they are lending support to this disgusting organisation.

If these people really believe in God, the Christian message and the actual tenets of their own brand of Christianity then surely it's not that difficult to go, with fellow worshippers, and hire their own places of worship.

Continuing to attend the official churches and not actively protesting against what is happening is little better than the denial/cover-up tactics of the hierachy.

Whuilst attendance in city churches may be down I notice masses of cars outside the rural ones on Sundays -too many Irish Catholics turning a blind eye to what is happening.

Speaking as someone who attends mass, with my family, every Sunday I take grave offence at your post. it all comes down to how you define the Catholic chruch. If you define it as the clergy and the leadership of the church who abused/covered up then I would agree with you. However, if you define it (as i do) as a community of people, who come together in their own place of worship who have been let down by a small number of priests (and it is a small number) and their leadership, then you get a very different view.

I come from the diocese of Cloyne, I went to school in one of the boarding schools mentioned in the Murphy report, reason enough you might guess to react like you did. But I also know the Parish priest, mentioned in the Murphy report, who reported an abuser to the bishop, chased the bsishop to find out when the diocessan investigators were coming and then when nothing was happening, went to the authorites. Why should I turn my back on him.?

Last Sunday, I went to Mass with my family and sat in peace and quiet for an hour (or at least until my 7 month old decided to join in with the choir), listened to some lovely music. After lunch we went to the Parish fun day, (all ran by the parishoners) and won 2 bottles of wine and a goldfish. Why on earth, by doing all of those things, do you think I, or anyone else involved, was I lending support to child abuse?.

If I give money to the Vincent de Paul, am I lending support to child abuse?. If I give money to Trocaire, am I lending support to child abuse? If I sit down with my cousin, a Christian Brother, for lunch, as I did last week, am I lending support to child abuse. If I sit down with my cousin, a Rev Mother, for lunch (and who, incidentally, boycotted mass on the day that women in Cork asked for people to do so) am I lending support to child abuse?

I've said this before on here and I'll say it again, my own belief is that abusers should be defrocked and excommunicated, and the same applies to the fools who willingly and deliberately covered it up. And I would walk out of mass if I found one of them saying it. But why should I turn my back on the rest?

 

[Birroc]

If you define it as the clergy and the leadership of the church who abused/covered up then I would agree with you. However, if you define it (as i do) as a community of people, who come together in their own place of worship who have been let down by a small number of priests (and it is a small number) and their leadership, then you get a very different view.

This point always bothers me. It was not a 'small number of priests' in my eyes because there is zero evidence in the many decades of abuse where the so-called 'good' priests initiated internal agitation to stop the abuse. There were a small number of actual abusers but the vast majority of the other priests turned a blind eye. And they all knew there was an abuse problem. I have never understood why all these 'good' men did nothing and turned a blind eye but by doing nothing they were complicit given their role in society. Any non-religious organisation would have experienced internal protests and actions. I can only guess that they stayed quiet fearing a loss of career/earnings.

 

[Firefly]

Speaking as someone who attends mass, with my family, every Sunday I take grave offence at your post. it all comes down to how you define the Catholic chruch. If you define it as the clergy and the leadership of the church who abused/covered up then I would agree with you. However, if you define it (as i do) as a community of people, who come together in their own place of worship who have been let down by a small number of priests (and it is a small number) and their leadership, then you get a very different view.

Hi Mpsox,

Let me ask you this...What did the "good" priests do when relevations of abuse came out?
Did they form a group and march to Rome?
Did they "go on strike" with placards outside their parish priests houses?
Did they apologise from the pulpit?
Did they arrange councilling / offer their help in any way?

The truth is that most did nothing. That's why I'm so angry.

 

[T McGibney]

This point always bothers me. It was not a 'small number of priests' in my eyes because there is zero evidence in the many decades of abuse where the so-called 'good' priests initiated internal agitation to stop the abuse. There were a small number of actual abusers but the vast majority of the other priests turned a blind eye. And they all knew there was an abuse problem. I have never understood why all these 'good' men did nothing and turned a blind eye but by doing nothing they were complicit given their role in society. Any non-religious organisation would have experienced internal protests and actions. I can only guess that they stayed quiet fearing a loss of career/earnings.

You miss the point that at no stage was the Irish child abuse scandal confined to the Church.

The dogs on the street in 1970s Ireland knew that institutionalised child abuse was rampant. I remember in the 70s as a small child on my first visit to Croke Park being amazed by the Artane Boys Band, and being told that 'those poor boys live in a horrible place and are treated very badly'. Yet the abuse in Artane and elsewhere continued for years after that.

Yet practically everybody (not just priests) turned a blind eye. The notion that in that era 'Any non-religious organisation would have experienced internal protests and actions' is laughable.

 

[T McGibney]

Hi Mpsox,

Let me ask you this...What did the "good" priests do when relevations of abuse came out?
Did they form a group and march to Rome?
Did they "go on strike" with placards outside their parish priests houses?
Did they apologise from the pulpit?
Did they arrange councilling / offer their help in any way?

The truth is that most did nothing. That's why I'm so angry.

Point taken. Now please tell us what you have done about the fact that the State, of which you are a citizen and taxpayer, has similiarly abused and facilitated the abuse of children. Have you marched to Dublin? Have you 'gone on strike'? Have you apologised? Have you offered help to victims? If you have, fair play to you, you have a right to be angry that others have not done the same as you.

 

[oldnick]

Mpsox - You take grave offence at my post ??
I'm not sure practising Roman Catholics should presently be the ones to take offence at the words of others concerning this whole subject.
The only ones you,Madam, should be offended by are the leaders of your organisation.

You -along with your fellow parishioners, your clerical cousins and nearly all of the clergy (almost none of whom have resigned in disgust) just don't get it do you ?

You may participate in all the activties at the church-owned establishments , rather than organise your own places of worship/social activities.
You may continue close ties with your priest and nun cousins who, of course knew or suspected nothing -good people,I'm sure, like all nuns and Christian Brothers.

But unless you and your fellow Rc members make a real protest then the evidence so far is that the disgraceful attitude of your leadership will continue.

Mc Gibney - you ask a question that proves my point...
- NO i would not pay taxes and I would vigorously protest any govnt if it continued to behave as the then govnts did years ago as regards child abuse and the cover up.
(Not being an RC I was unaware of what was happening in that branch of Christianity)
The "state" has changed in its attitude to the RC Church. Has , really, the RC shown any major change ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably this is too charged a subject to discuss in this thread without emotions getting the better of us.
I find any defence of the RC church in this matter too repellent, no matter how sincere the defender may be.

 

[T McGibney]

Mc Gibney - you ask a question that proves my point...
- NO i would not pay taxes and I would vigorously protest any govnt if it continued to behave as the then govnts did years ago as regards child abuse and the cover up.

With respect this is self-serving baloney.


[broken link removed]
"Brian Cowen has admitted this evening that at this stage he does not know how many children have died in State care in the past ten years.
One weekend report suggested as many as 200 children have died in State care, but the HSE says it will be the end of next month before it has a complete list."




ps please don't address me by my surname. It comes across as rude.

 

[Firefly]

Point taken. Now please tell us what you have done about the fact that the State, of which you are a citizen and taxpayer, has similiarly abused and facilitated the abuse of children. Have you marched to Dublin? Have you 'gone on strike'? Have you apologised? Have you offered help to victims? If you have, fair play to you, you have a right to be angry that others have not done the same as you.

You're not even close to comparing like for like. A family member works for the HSE with children in state care. The parents are often neglectful and abusive and themselves on drugs. They couldn't care about their kids. The kids are often wild and uncontrollable. They're drunk and on drugs all the time. They ultimately end up taking their own lives. All very tragic and the state, for sure, could do more to help. But, this is a lot different than actively sourcing and raping innocent kids and covering up same, all the while telling us sinners that we should repent.

 

[oldnick]

so sorry mr mcgibney/thomas/tommy -I mustn't be rude ,but you can continue to describe to my posts as "ludicrous stuff" ," baloney".

 

[T McGibney]

You're not even close to comparing like for like. A family member works for the HSE with children in state care. The parents are often neglectful and abusive and themselves on drugs. They couldn't care about their kids. The kids are often wild and uncontrollable. They're drunk and on drugs all the time. They ultimately end up taking their own lives. All very tragic and the state, for sure, could do more to help. But, this is a lot different than actively sourcing and raping innocent kids and covering up same, all the while telling us sinners that we should repent.

I think you're still missing the point. Much of the institutional abuse that was committed by Catholic Church personnel was actively facilitated and covered up by the State. Ditto the parallel obscenities of the Magdalen Laundries, the Cavan Orphanage Fire amongst others. The State acknowledged this by agreeing to foot the bill for a substantial portion of the Redress Fund.

Last year's debate about the numbers of children who have more recently died in State care is a different issue, but the fact that the HSE could not or did not want to provide the details to the Taoiseach as late as May 2010 is shocking.

 

[Firefly]

I think you're still missing the point. Much of the institutional abuse that was committed by Catholic Church personnel was actively facilitated and covered up by the State. Ditto the parallel obscenities of the Magdalen Laundries, the Cavan Orphanage Fire amongst others. The State acknowledged this by agreeing to foot the bill for a substantial portion of the Redress Fund.

I see where you are coming from now. Having said that the state, as you say, did acknowlege their part and did pay over money. The church in comparison did nothing. Those in the State who knew this was going on were equally to blame. They did turn a blind eye, and probably told themselves that things weren't as bad as they were.

Last year's debate about the numbers of children who have more recently died in State care is a different issue, but the fact that the HSE could not or did not want to provide the details to the Taoiseach as late as May 2010 is shocking.

I agree...it is shocking. Surely, those non-managers in the HSE with this knowledge should have led the way and protested? Perhaps the public would have gotten behind it. It still, for the reasons (see previous post) doesn't come close to the crimes committed by the priests.

 

[Mpsox]

Mpsox - You take grave offence at my post ??
I'm not sure practising Roman Catholics should presently be the ones to take offence at the words of others concerning this whole subject.
The only ones you,Madam, should be offended by are the leaders of your organisation.

You -along with your fellow parishioners, your clerical cousins and nearly all of the clergy (almost none of whom have resigned in disgust) just don't get it do you ?

You may participate in all the activties at the church-owned establishments , rather than organise your own places of worship/social activities.
You may continue close ties with your priest and nun cousins who, of course knew or suspected nothing -good people,I'm sure, like all nuns and Christian Brothers.

But unless you and your fellow Rc members make a real protest then the evidence so far is that the disgraceful attitude of your leadership will continue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably this is too charged a subject to discuss in this thread without emotions getting the better of us.
I find any defence of the RC church in this matter too repellent, no matter how sincere the defender may be.

Interesting how you thought I was a woman, why did you think that? (I'm not by the way)

I do have my own organised place of worship and social activites, it's called the Catholic church and is owned by the members, not by Rome, not by the diocese or by anyone else.

Why should other priest resign in disgust?, after all, if your boss turned out to be a paedophile would you quit?

Walking away from something is the cowards way out, it allows those who lead to think they've won. It is far better to try and change things from the inside and that is happening. It won't happen overnight, nothing does, it doesn't mean to say that some (like O'Callaghan in Cloyne) will oppose it, they will, but it doesn't mean to say things can't change.

I'm learning to swim at the minute, wonder if I should be doing that given the amount of abuse that was done by a small group of swimming instructors?

My smallie started school this week, wonder if I should let her go given that the local child abuser in my village when i was growing up was the lay married headmaster?