Public Service Attitudes.

[Complainer]

I won't argue with any of this, in fact I'm sure there are plenty of worse examples - my point is that the private sector 'self corrects' over time - bad management, unreasonable employees etc will eventually cause a business to hit a crisis point, and ultimately failure if they dont take corrective action.
Regarding the PS pensions - of course some PS employess were already contributing towards their pensions pre levy - however, their contributions didn't, and don't come within an asses roar of paying for the pensions offered.
All of the PS examples I gave are real - the utility was Bord Gais, I will not give any more details as they might compromise individuals.
By the way, FAS had a budget of 1 billion, when we had virtually full employment - and yes the top brass acted disgracefully (including the union reps on the board), but get real - it is obvious that much of that money was wasted employing people in non-jobs.
Apart from some contract staff, not one permanent PS has been made redundant against their will - hundreds of thousands of private sector works have suffered this faith.
Why the hell should one sector of society be immune from the full effects of the recession - and to cap it all - then complain when asked to take some pain - which would leave them in still a privilaged position.
If this were the Titanic, the PS would argue that the lifeboats should be reserved for them - because, well, just because..
This country is baldly governed, badly managed, and is broke. The private sector is going through painful adjustments, and their is more to come.
The PS is inefficient,too large, too costly, and is unaffordable.....thats just a fact.....most of the people arguing to the contrary are 'whistling past the graveyard'.......

I have to say that the 'it might compromise individuals' thing is a bit of a cop-out. Of the three other items that I asked you about, none of these can have been confidential to an individual. You don't get to give out protective clothing to an entire building and keep it secret. You don't get unions negotiating in secret about weekend lab staff. You don't get to provide a shuttle bus between two buildings in secret. If these things happened, they can be verified with the relevant organisations through FOI requests and/or PQs. No individual can be identified as 'leaking' these stories. So come on, let's get it all on the table.

Indeed, the behaviour at FAS was disgraceful at many levels, and all the board members bear responsibility for this. The fact that only Rody has taken a hit so far is very worrying. However, there is a lot of hindsight going on with the complaints here. I don't recall too many people worry about their €1billion budget at the time. I do know that they weren't just working with unemployed people here - a major part of their activities at the time was going round the world attracting people from other countries to come and work in Ireland - something that they did very well. Perhaps part of the reason why employment was so low here was precisely because FAS did a good job at making people employable? In fairness, I just guessing here - I don't know enough about this area to comment sensibly, But yet again, I'm sure that those who jump in with generalised attacks don't know enough about this area either.

I'm not sure that the 'private sector self-corrects' argument stands up to scrutiny either. Where is the self-correction for Mercer, who have clearly been screwing pensioners around for some years now. Where is the self-correction for companies notorious for dreadful customer service, like NTL, or Perlico? We all experience crap service and crap products at crap prices every day of the week, but this magical 'self-correction' effect doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot.

But even if we did accept this idea of self-correction, my first response is 'so what?'. So what if the badly managed companies go bust - what is the benefit from this? Does it give a nice sense of revenge or schaddenfreude? Does it ensure that people learn from their mistakes? Well not really - some people will learn from their experiences, but some wont. People learn in different ways - some learn from having a great mentor, some learn from being thrown in at the deep end, some learn from books. There is no particular benefit from this self-correcting effect.

You can make all the bald claims about the public sector you like, and you can repeat them as often as you like - that doesn't make them true.

 

[thedaras]

Yes but those public sector workers will do alright with expenses/mileage/time-off. I used to work in public service but stupidly left - my ex-colleagues, all office workers were ringing me telling me they were sent home last week due to floods (Galway) and told not to come in the next day either - many of them were not affected by the flooding in any way. And don't start me on the sick leave - PS where I worked was a complete doss-house - not all dept/councils are dossy but many are...I miss it...

My brother in law,works in the PS ,he takes off most fridays at 2..( he isnt supposed to finish till 4.30 ) he has never worked an honest (full )day, ...to go to his other house in the country!!

My brother in law works alongside a porter in a hospital who when he is asked to go to the shops ,in fact goes home for an hour..,and dare you ask him where he was,you can hear the unions running to help as soon as the words are said..nice!

The reality is that anyone I know whom works for the Public Service,tells me directly about all the dossing that goes on in their particular department,and the means and ways to get by doing as little as possible.
It is a reality that the less work people do ,the less they want to do and this spreads like a cancer.

Can anyone tell me why,they would say these things if they are not true?

Anyone I know who works in the public service agrees that they take advantage of "sick leave"..they think its funny..

Those ps workers whom are being hailed as heros for dealing with the floods are just doing what they are being paid to do.for once..IMO..what do they want a medal!!

I worked for several years with the PS, and I fought against the system and the unions and it was the most difficult of situations as I was seen as not being one of them,because I didnt want to become a complete dosser.
It is soul destroying to want to do a decent days work and be told your doing too much and letting the side down..
The reality is that as someone said earlier this can and does happen in the private sector,but if you choose to go down that road you run the risk of being sacked..this is not the case in the public service..

I have seen appalling waste,of time ,money,services during my time there.

There are good ,very good people there,but I think its a bit like,for example the priesthood where peadophiles where attracted to become priests,for the opportunitys it gave them,and for me the public service attracts a lot of people whom are aware that once they are made permanant ,have a job for life,doss to their hearts content and cannot be sacked,add to that the nice pension and you get my point..

We have many examples of companys ,private like perlico etc where people complain of bad sevice,but the reality is we can choose to leave that company and use one of the many others available to us..we cant do this with a public service ..companys with appalling service will in the long run ,go out of buisness..

The fact is that I do know many people whom work in the PS and they are the ones who tell me about the goings on..

I can understand those who are trying to do a good days work in the PS being completly frustrated by those of us who are having a go,but please be aware that ,the comments are not directed at you personally ,but at the ones who are dragging you down,dossing,not doing their fair share,taking all the "sick leave ",they can get,go home early..dont answer phones,refuse to do any little thing that may be considered extra to their employment contract.,cause problems left right and centre for the slightest thing,fight all change..and run to the unions as soon as they feel there is something in it for them.those are the ones I have a problem with.

I really do feel sorry for those of us in the PS who do the best we can,and fight a lossing battle with those diehards causing the problems

 

[Maximus152]

At least, unlike bankers, they dont reward themselves with multimillion euro bonuses even if they do a rubbish job.

..What kind of a statement is that there is a handfull of Bankers (taking millions granted) there are 1000's of public service employee's. There is no connection or reasoning, Im totally against these massive Bankers bonus packages but the public service issue is a different animal.The public service get rewarded by wonderful working hours, superb pension packages generous expenses (travell etc) and tasty sick leave with a dash of garaunteed job security for the rest of working life. I like it...I like it a lot. I will have one of those please.

 

[gianni]

The public service get rewarded by wonderful working hours

Wonderful ? Have you ever seen the Garda shift rotation ?

generous expenses (travell etc)

Please give an example of these generous expenses?

I like it...I like it a lot. I will have one of those please.

was where you should have been looking for one of these jobs, not on AAM. Terms, conditions and application details were there - all suitable candidates were welcome to apply.

 

[S.L.F]

We have many examples of companys ,private like perlico etc where people complain of bad sevice,but the reality is we can choose to leave that company and use one of the many others available to us..we cant do this with a public service ..companys with appalling service will in the long run ,go out of buisness..

So when you dial 999 you want a particular Garda station to answer the phone and call to your house or you want a particular hospital to admit you when you get ill.

 

[DonDub]

I have to say that the 'it might compromise individuals' thing is a bit of a cop-out. Of the three other items that I asked you about, none of these can have been confidential to an individual. You don't get to give out protective clothing to an entire building and keep it secret. You don't get unions negotiating in secret about weekend lab staff. You don't get to provide a shuttle bus between two buildings in secret. If these things happened, they can be verified with the relevant organisations through FOI requests and/or PQs. No individual can be identified as 'leaking' these stories. So come on, let's get it all on the table.

Indeed, the behaviour at FAS was disgraceful at many levels, and all the board members bear responsibility for this. The fact that only Rody has taken a hit so far is very worrying. However, there is a lot of hindsight going on with the complaints here. I don't recall too many people worry about their €1billion budget at the time. I do know that they weren't just working with unemployed people here - a major part of their activities at the time was going round the world attracting people from other countries to come and work in Ireland - something that they did very well. Perhaps part of the reason why employment was so low here was precisely because FAS did a good job at making people employable? In fairness, I just guessing here - I don't know enough about this area to comment sensibly, But yet again, I'm sure that those who jump in with generalised attacks don't know enough about this area either.

I'm not sure that the 'private sector self-corrects' argument stands up to scrutiny either. Where is the self-correction for Mercer, who have clearly been screwing pensioners around for some years now. Where is the self-correction for companies notorious for dreadful customer service, like NTL, or Perlico? We all experience crap service and crap products at crap prices every day of the week, but this magical 'self-correction' effect doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot.

But even if we did accept this idea of self-correction, my first response is 'so what?'. So what if the badly managed companies go bust - what is the benefit from this? Does it give a nice sense of revenge or schaddenfreude? Does it ensure that people learn from their mistakes? Well not really - some people will learn from their experiences, but some wont. People learn in different ways - some learn from having a great mentor, some learn from being thrown in at the deep end, some learn from books. There is no particular benefit from this self-correcting effect.

You can make all the bald claims about the public sector you like, and you can repeat them as often as you like - that doesn't make them true.

Did I say an entire building - they were the employees who had to make the arduos trek between the two buildings. Your insistence that I name names seems to suggests that if you can prove I'm lying, then the PS is vindicated.....yeah right....my few examples are just the tip of a very, very large iceberg. What about P-Pars - did I make that up, army defness claims, blue flu,benchmarking,ESB prices - 2nd highest in Europe, massive over-runs on PS manged infrastructural projects e.g. port tunnel - by hundreds of millions, hundreds of civil servants in Dept of Health, years after the HSE juggernaut was created...oh yeah, the HSE...layer upon layer of additional headcount running an incredibly inefficient health 'service',teachers refusing to hold PT meetings outside school hours......have I made all these up...do you want the names and addresses of all involved?

Actually, I know a bit about FAS.....I have read acres of print about it lately...now lets assume that not every journalist is in on the 'anti-PS' conspiracy..and that that there are many legitimate questions about the €1billion budget in times of virtual full employment.

Of course there is a benefit through self-correction...If I run a business selling cakes or cars or whatever, and my service, quality, price is not up to that of the competition, it won't be long before my sales begin to go south - I either respond by cutting prices, improving service etc...or I eventually go bust. Joe public benefits either way. There are sectors in the private sector where this process has not acted effectively - typically in areas that have been poorly regulated by that shower of gombeens in government. But, even for them the market catches up..as Buffett says.."you only see who is swimming naked when the tide goes out"

Again, its really simple maths....Income = €32billion, expenditure = €54billion, 80% of expenditure is in wages and social welfare. Therefore, we either jack up taxes even further, in a crazy attempt to leave spending intact, or we cut spending to affordable levels. Now, I know PS unions favour extra taxes, of course they would - even though such a course of action will only deepen and extend the duration of the recession/depression. Its analagous to a child who has been allowed to overeat by its parents for many years- and as a consequence is overweight and dependent on the 'rich' diet. I don't expect the child to voluntarily cut its food intake. I expect the parents to intervene, and to ensure that the child eats a more balanced diet - the Dail needs to take the tough decisions required to cut spending, to save this country from ruin ....these so called partnership talks are almost certainly going to result in an ineffective response to the public finances crisis. So, don't worry Complainer, there are enough political muppets in government prepared to accept the truth as spoken by Jack, Peter and the lads.....and people like me will be ignored, with insinuations that we are liars...again....

Anyway, I'm off back to the real world, where close friends and colleagues have been made redundant, where banks are refusing to lend to people because of job insecurity, where pay is being cut, where......oh wait...I'm doing it again.....I must remember to post all their names, addresses......

 

[Maximus152]

Wonderful ? Have you ever seen the Garda shift rotation ?



Please give an example of these generous expenses?



was where you should have been looking for one of these jobs, not on AAM. Terms, conditions and application details were there - all suitable candidates were welcome to apply.

Okay, I know numerous folk who work shift rotation in private sector and have done it in another life myself.
Expenses were discussed on Radio 1 numerous times, travel exp to work if outside Dublin, accomadation exp, I heard of free creche facilities (surely not!), because I can not list more does not mean they are not available!
Yes the jobs were posted I am sure, but alas I do not know anyone in there.
For record I am not targeting any section in Public sector, we need Gardai, Emerg services etc thats a given, what I am trying to convey (prob badly) is there needs to be a over haul of attitude and responsible cost of running public sector. People are sick to the back teeth of seeing these union officials they do the Public sector zero beneift, they actually make my skin crawl. I would think Govern and different sections talking by themselves would make much more progress each on there own merit.

 

[Complainer]

Did I say an entire building - they were the employees who had to make the arduos trek between the two buildings. Your insistence that I name names seems to suggests that if you can prove I'm lying, then the PS is vindicated.....yeah right....my few examples are just the tip of a very, very large iceberg. What about P-Pars - did I make that up, army defness claims, blue flu,benchmarking,ESB prices - 2nd highest in Europe, massive over-runs on PS manged infrastructural projects e.g. port tunnel - by hundreds of millions, hundreds of civil servants in Dept of Health, years after the HSE juggernaut was created...oh yeah, the HSE...layer upon layer of additional headcount running an incredibly inefficient health 'service',teachers refusing to hold PT meetings outside school hours......have I made all these up...do you want the names and addresses of all involved?
.

Nice diversion, I'll take that as a 'No' then to my request for verifiable details. Seems a pity, but there you go.

 

[thedaras]

Nice diversion, I'll take that as a 'No' then to my request for verifiable details. Seems a pity, but there you go.

What!! Are you for real!! you actually want someone to post the names ,addresses etc of people whom they are mentioning on this board!!
You are having a laugh...

If you are so insistent on everyone naming names ,how come you use a psudeo name?

That is just playground stuff ,No one in their right mind would do that ,and only someone who doesnt live in the real world would actully expect it.
C,mon, you cannot be serious,and you call it a diversion when they wont!

What exactly would you like to do with the names addresses etc.
The reality is that a board like AAM gives people the chance to give their opinions,I dont see anywhere in the rules that says names and addresses must be supplied.
Really rather shocked at your request..

 

[Complainer]

What!! Are you for real!! you actually want someone to post the names ,addresses etc of people whom they are mentioning on this board!!
You are having a laugh...

If you are so insistent on everyone naming names ,how come you use a psudeo name?

That is just playground stuff ,No one in their right mind would do that ,and only someone who doesnt live in the real world would actully expect it.
C,mon, you cannot be serious,and you call it a diversion when they wont!

What exactly would you like to do with the names addresses etc.
The reality is that a board like AAM gives people the chance to give their opinions,I dont see anywhere in the rules that says names and addresses must be supplied.
Really rather shocked at your request..

You might want to go back and read my requests to Don again, slowly this time.

 

[thedaras]

You might want to go back and read my requests to Don again, slowly this time.

Originally Posted by Complainer http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=966850#post966850
I don't suppose there is any chance of any evidence/backup/comparitive data/explanation for any of these claims? Is that too much to expect".

like this one?

 

[Complainer]

Originally Posted by Complainer http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=966850#post966850
I don't suppose there is any chance of any evidence/backup/comparitive data/explanation for any of these claims? Is that too much to expect".

like this one?

Try harder. Even more slowly.

 

[thedaras]

Try harder. Even more slowly.

Perhaps you could clarify what exactly you mean by

complainer "evidence/backup/comparitive data/explanation for any of these claims? Is that too much to expect".

Originally Posted by Complainer http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=967640#post967640

I have to say that the 'it might compromise individuals' thing is a bit of a cop-out. Of the three other items that I asked you about, none of these can have been confidential to an individual

what part of " it might compromise individuals" do you think is a cop out?

Surely if Don thinks it may compromise individuals he wouldnt be silly enough to post verifiable evidence?


.

You don't get to give out protective clothing to an entire building and keep it secret. You don't get unions negotiating in secret about weekend lab staff. You don't get to provide a shuttle bus between two buildings in secret. If these things happened, they can be verified with the relevant organisations through FOI requests and/or PQs. No individual can be identified as 'leaking' these stories. So come on, let's get it all on the table.

Lets say he/she named the companys involved..what exactly would that do? how would it help?

All very interesting stuff, and probably a grain of truth behind some or all of it. It would be particularly helpful if you could be more specific about the bits that don't expose any individual. Where was the adjacent buildings with the covered walkway where the staff got the protective clothing? Where were the two offices 20 minutes apart with the bus provided? In which hospital did the union object to providing extra lab cover at the weekend? Which utility (come on, there is only two of them) charged €550 for their meter?

What difference does it make where the buildings are or which hospital?

But just for comparison, here's my stories from my 25 year career in the private sector (no nomes to protect my confidentiality);

Do you think it possible that Don may be trying to do what you just did?

If everyone named specific companys/offices/hospitals etc,I dont think AAM would be too happy...

 

[Birroc]

Nice diversion, I'll take that as a 'No' then to my request for verifiable details. Seems a pity, but there you go.

Complainer, you are only making things worse with the denials. As you know I worked in PS and I can tell you I milked the system and dossed with the best of them, it was too easy - however I did not keep a record of my actions or others and even if I did somehow, do you expect me to share them with you on a public forum?

 

[thedaras]

So when you dial 999 you want a particular Garda station to answer the phone and call to your house or you want a particular hospital to admit you when you get ill.

I dont have any choice in the matter, I have to take what Im given...regardless of the service, however if it were a private company of course I would have the choice..

The point is that we need a more efficient,customer focused service.We all need to be able to complain about a bad service and to be heard when things go wrong...when someone works in a company and they never have to suffer the consequences of their actions,what incentive is there for them to preform to a high standard?

 

[thedaras]

Complainer, you are only making things worse with the denials. As you know I worked in PS and I can tell you I milked the system and dossed with the best of them, it was too easy - however I did not keep a record of my actions or others and even if I did somehow, do you expect me to share them with you on a public forum?

Plus 1
And I also worked in the PS where I saw people milk the system and dossed to their hearts content,with no one suffering the consequences of their actions.

I also worked in the private sector,where there were dossers and people who tried to milk the system,however those who did,eventually got what they deserved.ie; the sack!!

 

[Complainer]

Perhaps you could clarify what exactly you mean by

complainer "evidence/backup/comparitive data/explanation for any of these claims? Is that too much to expect".

I did clarify exactly what I meant in the earlier post that I asked you twice to read. I said the following; "Where was the adjacent buildings with the covered walkway where the staff got the protective clothing? Where were the two offices 20 minutes apart with the bus provided? In which hospital did the union object to providing extra lab cover at the weekend? Which utility (come on, there is only two of them) charged €550 for their meter?" from which it is clear that I am not looking for any individual to be named, just the organisation & locations. Perhaps this would be a good time for you to withdraw your attack on me where you alleged that I was looking for individuals to be named.

 

[thedaras]

I did clarify exactly what I meant in the earlier post that I asked you twice to read. I said the following; "Where was the adjacent buildings with the covered walkway where the staff got the protective clothing? Where were the two offices 20 minutes apart with the bus provided? In which hospital did the union object to providing extra lab cover at the weekend? Which utility (come on, there is only two of them) charged €550 for their meter?" from which it is clear that I am not looking for any individual to be named, just the organisation & locations. Perhaps this would be a good time for you to withdraw your attack on me where you alleged that I was looking for individuals to be named.

Absolutly,if you feel you were "attacked" that was never my intention..
However you forgot to mention in the above post that you did ask for "verifiable" details,can you tell me how someone could do this without identifying a lot of people?

Perhaps you could now tell me why you want to know where the buildings /offices, which hospital and utilities,what is the purpose of this?

If for example I was to say it was the Xcompany of the public service who had demanded protective clothing for a covered walkway, surely that would be identifying them? I do not see what use it serves...

 

[Complainer]

However you forgot to mention in the above post that you did ask for "verifiable" details,can you tell me how someone could do this without identifying a lot of people?

DonDub could do this by answering the specific questions that I asked above, i.e. "Where was the adjacent buildings with the covered walkway where the staff got the protective clothing? Where were the two offices 20 minutes apart with the bus provided? In which hospital did the union object to providing extra lab cover at the weekend? Which utility (come on, there is only two of them) charged €550 for their meter?" All of these questions can be answered by identifying organisations and locations, not people.

Perhaps you could now tell me why you want to know where the buildings /offices, which hospital and utilities,what is the purpose of this?

If for example I was to say it was the Xcompany of the public service who had demanded protective clothing for a covered walkway, surely that would be identifying them? I do not see what use it serves...

Identifying the organisations and locations will allow us to confirm or deny the validity of these claims. Why would anyone be reluctant to identify the organisations and locations involved?

 

[Howitzer]

DonDub could do this by answering the specific questions that I asked above, i.e. "Where was the adjacent buildings with the covered walkway where the staff got the protective clothing? Where were the two offices 20 minutes apart with the bus provided? In which hospital did the union object to providing extra lab cover at the weekend? Which utility (come on, there is only two of them) charged €550 for their meter?" All of these questions can be answered by identifying organisations and locations, not people.



Identifying the organisations and locations will allow us to confirm or deny the validity of these claims. Why would anyone be reluctant to identify the organisations and locations involved?

I'd agree, these instances could be pretty easilly identified and it probably wouldn't compromise anyone's identity.

However, what's the point? You continually ask for examples to back up poster's assertions, even when examples have been widely published and are common knowledge. When linked examples are posted you ignore them and move on to the next circular argument, obfuscating issues and hiding behind a pretence that "there's nothing to see here people, move on".