Where is the evidence/backup/comparitive data/explanation to prove the contrary? In the health service?
Public Service Attitudes.
- Thread starter quarterfloun
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Where is the evidence/backup/comparitive data/explanation to prove the contrary? In the health service?
OK
- Old school pal in mid management role in PS - over the years, often mentioned that he uses his 'sick' days as holidays
- Friend works in PS, manages small team, needed to upgrade his hardware/software - took time to identify optimal solution. Sought approval from boss to spend €15k. Request took months to process - was told eventually that a better solution had been identified.Months later, it arrived, cost €80K. Friend says that it is not fit for purpose, and will have to replaced
- I had building work carried out a while back, needed one of utility meters moved - builder said he would do whole job for €100. I contacted utility for approval - they said that only they could move, once builder had done the prep work - at cost of €550 euro. It took the three of them who turned up 20 mins to move - as most of the real work had been done by the builder
- One of my family members was in A&E last year - after several hours was seen by nurse - then doctor. Blood samples sent to lab for analysis - doc said it would take 3 hours for results, as only one lab tech on duty - apparently union had (for years) objected to providing adequate shift cover at weekends
- My wife is ex PS. I could fill a book with the mad goings-on she encountered - but here is just is one - colleagues insisted on being provided with winter clothing (boots, hat, jacket etc) so that they could brave the terrible winter weather as they moved between two adjacent buildings - joined by a covered walk-way
- Friend is a business consultant, works internationally - tells me that the most inefficient utility provider he has encountered is the ESB, and that they are hugely over-paid when compared to international (efficient) peers
- Met a senior PS manger at a conference a while back - told me that she had joined PS for a break, as pressure in business meant that it was hard to juggle work and family. Also mentioned that she had been involved in closing an office of the state agency she worked for, and moving the affected staff to another office, 20 mins away. Union got involved, insisted that bus must be provided to transport staff from/to old office, within office hours ........ the bus was provided
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S
S.L.F
Guest
This old turkey has been hashed to death here on AAM, it's always the same my mate said or I heard down in the pub or I read it in the indo.
Abuses occur but you can tarnish the entire PS because of your 'mate'.
Do you want to give more specifics?
Which bunch are you on about now?
Send a letter to Mary Harney she's the one who has been responsible for a huge range of cut-backs in the hospitals.
Name of dept or agency???
He's probably been reading the indo.
I know a good few people who work in the PS can you give me the details for what that woman does because I'm sure they would love the same job.
Don't suppose you can give any named people who have done these things?
galleyslave
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"Send a letter to Mary Harney she's the one who has been responsible for a huge range of cut-backs in the hospitals."
I did in the past - nothing heard. Short version - I was returning crutches to the Mercy Hospital in Cork and was told to keep them. Enquiring why, I was told health and safety - could be infected etc. Though this was mad, phoned my sister who is a nurse in Dublin - she said they always take them back. So contacted Mary, no reply, no acknowledgement and to this day I dunno if the Mercy take back crutches.
So, waste in the public sector - nothing surprises me
I did in the past - nothing heard. Short version - I was returning crutches to the Mercy Hospital in Cork and was told to keep them. Enquiring why, I was told health and safety - could be infected etc. Though this was mad, phoned my sister who is a nurse in Dublin - she said they always take them back. So contacted Mary, no reply, no acknowledgement and to this day I dunno if the Mercy take back crutches.
So, waste in the public sector - nothing surprises me
galleyslave
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"Originally Posted by DonDub
In the PS, there are no consequences for greed, incompetence,bad management, in fact it is often rewarded.....
Don't suppose you can give any named people who have done these things?"
the head of FAS perhaps?
In the PS, there are no consequences for greed, incompetence,bad management, in fact it is often rewarded.....
Don't suppose you can give any named people who have done these things?"
the head of FAS perhaps?
Z
z107
Guest
What does DonDub have to gain by making this stuff up, as is implied? DonDub must have a very good imagination.
I would suspect that the anecdotes listed do not state names because it could get certain people into trouble.
I would suspect that the anecdotes listed do not state names because it could get certain people into trouble.
Yeah, like I made it all up....and sure, I will name people on a public forum.
I could have listed another 50 real examples, like anyone else who has dealt with the PS.
No one in the real world would name an individual on an internet forum,
you need to get real!
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galleyslave
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dondub, don't you realise that this is a court of law and you need a chain of evidence sufficient to sway a high court judge before you can critique the PS here!
S
S.L.F
Guest
Since the PS is an organisation of 350,000 people you are bound to get bad stories coming from it.
How about some stories about the private sector
I used to know a guy who would steal everything he could from his job then when he was made redundant he started off his own business using all the stolen parts he aquired over the years.
I know a guy who would spend his entire day watching utube links in work.
I know a bunch of estate agents who don't bother to answer the phone because they spend their day playing computer games.
I know of a guy who point blank refuses to employ foreigners because he hates them.
A friend of mine was working in catering and they had a girl who was illegal (being paid cash) and when she became pregnant she was fired.
I know of a chipper that used to make it's burgers out of dog food (lots of tins outside every bin day but no dog
).I have heard of a few people here in Ireland who stiff people on a regular basis they promise to do the work get a deposit and then vanish, one particular woman lost 10,000 CASH.
All of the things I have told you are true does that make private sector workers lazy, heartless, shiftless, bigotted, thieves, well hell YES
.*Edit that should read mortgage brokers not estate agents*
Complainer
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All very interesting stuff, and probably a grain of truth behind some or all of it. It would be particularly helpful if you could be more specific about the bits that don't expose any individual. Where was the adjacent buildings with the covered walkway where the staff got the protective clothing? Where were the two offices 20 minutes apart with the bus provided? In which hospital did the union object to providing extra lab cover at the weekend? Which utility (come on, there is only two of them) charged €550 for their meter?
But just for comparison, here's my stories from my 25 year career in the private sector (no nomes to protect my confidentiality);
- the large multinational with the 'zombie' project, one that couldn't be killed off - to develop an in-house IT system for one of the lines of business. It reared up three times in my six years, had over $1m spent on it each time, and then faded away with no deliverables. No execs fired or sanctioned, and several well promoted and bonused to oblivion to reward all their hard work
- the senior IT manager of a major Irish company whose staff used to book him for every conference/seminar/training course they could find, to minimise the damage that he would do to the business. He was generally accepted by all a bit of a dope, who got to where he was through family connections. He stayed in the role to retirement, despite a series of fairly major screw-ups
- the multi-national where you couldn't get to see the MD or the FD after lunch, because they would both be pi$$ed, generally together, but sometimes separately, before they would drive off home in their company Mercs around 4pm. The FD couldn't keep a secretary for more than 3 months due to his wandering hands. Both retired comfortably, no sanction, and not that long ago (late 90's)
- the senior manager in a large multinational who would regularly pull out of a meeting at short notice because he was 'maxed out', and within 20 minutes was mooching round the open plan looking for somebody to accompany him for a coffee. He got promoted.
- the large consultancy that introduced a bonus system based on personal goals, and not team goals, despite that fact that 90% of projects were team-based. The place exploded over the next 12 months as staff beat each other up to achieve their personal goals with no regard for the team or the project. Several large projects slipped substantially, one project collapsed, key team members left in frustration. The 'visionaries' of the new bonus system stayed, and 1 was promoted.
- the large multi-national that stored filing cabinets in the fire-escape stair landings because they had 'no room' elsewhere, and ignored several complaints about this life-threatening issue.
I'm sure I could come up with a few more if I keep digging, but don't just rely on me. Look around on this site and find the stories of how Mercer pensions managers have been screwing up pensioners for several years now, with no improvement or sanction. Look at the damage all the banks, but Anglo and INBS in particular have done to their shareholders, and to the economy as a whole. Where is that sanction for Seanie Fitz and Michael €27m pension Fingleton? Look at the kinds of screwups reported on this site regularly with NTL, with Ryanair, with MBNA etc.
There is no doubt that the public sector screws up, and sometimes it screws up bigtime (FAS, PPARS, eVoting etc). Just as the private sector screws up, though of course most of the private sector screw-ups are dealt with nice and quietly internally, with no fuss and no media, so we just don't get to hear about it.
What I was really hoping for when I asked for some evidence was not a few anecdotal stories, which are pretty worthless. Given the extent to which the public sector has been examined with many fine toothcombs over recent years, is it unreasonable to think that these apparently huge, glaring problems would have come out.
Lex Foutish
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What has DonDub have to gain by making this stuff up?
Funny you should ask but I'm sure we'd all like to know.
Never let the facts get in the way of a dig at the Public Service might help you find the answer.
Last week he claimed that the recent pension levy was teachers' first ever contribution towards their pension...........
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=965293#post965293
Maybe his Private Sector friends told him that also.
Lex Foutish
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Huh!!! Lazy useless gits!!!
If they were any good and had been doing their job properly, they would have seen the bad weather and floods coming and would have been putting anti flood measures in place over the duration of the Celtic Tiger, instead of sitting on their backsides, doing damn all except taking extended coffee breaks, drawing wages for nothing, building up pension credit at no cost to themselves and single handedly being totally responsible for all of our current economic woes.
They should all hang their heads in shame!
Since the PS is an organisation of 350,000 people you are bound to get bad stories coming from it.
How about some stories about the private sector
I used to know a guy who would steal everything he could from his job then when he was made redundant he started off his own business using all the stolen parts he aquired over the years.
I know a guy who would spend his entire day watching utube links in work.
I know a bunch of estate agents who don't bother to answer the phone because they spend their day playing computer games.
I know of a guy who point blank refuses to employ foreigners because he hates them.
A friend of mine was working in catering and they had a girl who was illegal (being paid cash) and when she became pregnant she was fired.
I know of a chipper that used to make it's burgers out of dog food (lots of tins outside every bin day but no dog
I have heard of a few people here in Ireland who stiff people on a regular basis they promise to do the work get a deposit and then vanish, one particular woman lost 10,000 CASH.
All of the things I have told you are true does that make private sector workers lazy, heartless, shiftless, bigotted, thieves, well hell YES
I won't argue with any of this, in fact I'm sure there are plenty of worse examples - my point is that the private sector 'self corrects' over time - bad management, unreasonable employees etc will eventually cause a business to hit a crisis point, and ultimately failure if they dont take corrective action.
Regarding the PS pensions - of course some PS employess were already contributing towards their pensions pre levy - however, their contributions didn't, and don't come within an asses roar of paying for the pensions offered.
All of the PS examples I gave are real - the utility was Bord Gais, I will not give any more details as they might compromise individuals.
By the way, FAS had a budget of 1 billion, when we had virtually full employment - and yes the top brass acted disgracefully (including the union reps on the board), but get real - it is obvious that much of that money was wasted employing people in non-jobs.
Apart from some contract staff, not one permanent PS has been made redundant against their will - hundreds of thousands of private sector works have suffered this faith.
Why the hell should one sector of society be immune from the full effects of the recession - and to cap it all - then complain when asked to take some pain - which would leave them in still a privilaged position.
If this were the Titanic, the PS would argue that the lifeboats should be reserved for them - because, well, just because..
This country is baldly governed, badly managed, and is broke. The private sector is going through painful adjustments, and their is more to come.
The PS is inefficient,too large, too costly, and is unaffordable.....thats just a fact.....most of the people arguing to the contrary are 'whistling past the graveyard'.......
Lex Foutish
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Don, you make a few fair points.
But the Public Service pensions only seems to have become a massive issue since the huge pensions that some non PS workers were achieving, and could contribute large sums of spare cash to with large tax relief, were greatly affected when the bottom fell out of the financial market.
I often think there's a bit of a "my pension has been decimated and I'm damned if yours isn't going to be now as well, if I have anything to do with it!" attitude from many.
P.S.
I hope BaldyMan doesn't take offence to how you think he's running the country! (Second last line above)
S
S.L.F
Guest
You are correct about that but the thing you forget which most people do is that it is the govt that gives the direction that the public service is to go in.
When ever they made a new ombudsman they had to employ more staff to run it, these things don't run themselves.
Remember the decentralisation thing that has cost a billion who thought that turkey up and the crazy timescale.
This is what they signed up to when they joined the PS, the pension is only superduper if you are in the PS for a full 40 years if you are only in the PS for 39 years you don't get 39/40 of a pension you get less than that.
Any professionals would only be going into the PS when they are between 25 and 30 so they will be hard pressed to get the full 40 years.
You can buy extra years but it is very expensive.
I'm not doubting what you say but you have to understand the PS is an enormous organisation, of course you are going to get horror stories.
But really and truly, don't you have anything good to say about the people who work their guts out in the PS, because if you don't, then you don't have a balanced view there for as far as I'm concerned you are just another PS basher.
I don't know enough about FAS to answer questions about it, having read some of the stuff in the papers it would seem there was some very funny goings on and if there was truth to any of them the Garda should be involved.
I would suspect our dear govt would be the ones who would stop any investigation by the garda.
Metaphors I love metaphors and the Titanic is a great example.
The captain (the govt) steers the Titanic (Ireland in case you weren't paying attention) through waters at full speed, in spite of iceberg (financial troubles) warnings then when it hits the iceberg the captain refuses to believe it will sink (FF and the soft landing) then when it is sinking the only ones who make it out are the ones who are already seriously wealthy.
Most of the crew died, a few very wealthy individuals had the moral courage to die with the lower classes but they were few and far between.
Yeah the Titanic is a great example...
Badly goverened-agreed
Badly managed-I'm not so sure about
Broke-due to the most appalling decisions by any govt
According to a poll in The Irish Times 70% of people queried have not lost their jobs nor have had wage cuts in fact the national pay agreement has been honoured by a whole load of companies including the ESB
It is not a fact as far as I'm concerned.
This country is not dead yet if the govt has it's way and destroys the moral of the PS we will be in even more trouble.
Yes but those public sector workers will do alright with expenses/mileage/time-off. I used to work in public service but stupidly left - my ex-colleagues, all office workers were ringing me telling me they were sent home last week due to floods (Galway) and told not to come in the next day either - many of them were not affected by the flooding in any way. And don't start me on the sick leave - PS where I worked was a complete doss-house - not all dept/councils are dossy but many are...I miss it...
When I worked in PS, a guy in IT told me that he had nothing to do for 70% of the week - when he complained to his boss, his boss told him he was too eager and to relax. He left after 3 years but he told me that his proudest achievement during work was writing a program/macro that would log him in and out of the system automatically at times he specified. He and a few mates used it to ensure that they made their standard hours + overtime in order to get the flexi day a month even though at the end he reckoned he was in the office for less than 20 hours a week on average.