Why is Bitcoin "digital gold" crashing right now?

[MaxGordon]

Thank you, Duke

I choose to ignore the customary reflex swing - leopards will be leopards - and focus on the positive aspects. And this is encouraging. Perhaps, my dignified steadfastness and calm persistence have paid off again - much like they did in our last tête-à-tête. Or maybe it's because Leo has got involved. Whatever the case, this is great as we can now focus on the issues.

In deference to long-suffering Tecate, I believe that it's only fair that he compiles all outstanding questions. I acknowledge his superior knowledge and I do not wish to spurn this breakthrough.

Je vous prie de croire, Madame la duchesse/ Monsieur le duc, (comme vous aimez bien) en l’expression des mes plus respectueuses salutations.

 

[Leo]

I don't like the sense of being bullied - not by you I hasten to add. I have said before that I am happy (content, not contente for le duc) to answer all questions once the outstanding questions on the other side of the net have been answered. That's fair, non?

You can report any posts you feel are bullying via the link on the bottom left of that post. We try to view all reports impartially.

Last week or maybe it was the week before, it literally took multiple posts for the Duke to stop denying the undeniable

Sorry, I don't understand what that has to do with your claim gold has no utility?

 

[tecate]

Sorry, I don't understand what that has to do with your claim gold has no utility?

At 7.48%, that industrial utility is so insignificant, I'd imagine it was hardly worth Max' time in responding.

 

[Leo]

At 7.48%, that industrial utility is so insignificant, I'd imagine it was hardly worth Max' time in responding.

So if someone offered you 7% you'd turn it down in favour of a no-interest account as they're actually the same thing?

For some reason you also omit the 46% demand for jewelry too? (though that is down to around 30% of demand this year as COVID impacts discretionary spending)

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Thank you, Duke

I choose to ignore the customary reflex swing - leopards will be leopards - and focus on the positive aspects. And this is encouraging. Perhaps, my dignified steadfastness and calm persistence have paid off again - much like they did in our last tête-à-tête. Or maybe it's because Leo has got involved. Whatever the case, this is great as we can now focus on the issues.

In deference to long-suffering Tecate, I believe that it's only fair that he compiles all outstanding questions. I acknowledge his superior knowledge and I do not wish to spurn this breakthrough.

Je vous prie de croire, Madame la duchesse/ Monsieur le duc, (comme vous aimez bien) en l’expression des mes plus respectueuses salutations.

And the questions are?

 

[tecate]

So if someone offered you 7% you'd turn it down in favour of a no-interest account as they're actually the same thing?

They're in NO way the same thing (as in, the analogy is totally flawed). It demonstrates that industrial use of gold is peripheral. Its value has little relation to that industrial use and everything to do with a store of value use case based on the scarcity of gold.

For some reason you also omit the 46% demand for jewelry too?

How, omit? You never referred to it. Aside from that, its been discussed already. As per the world gold council, they class gold jewelry as an investment category (because they have the experience to know that people worldwide lead with the value of gold as their main rationale in buying it).

 

[tecate]

Never a dull moment...

"Iran Amends Law to Allow Imports to be Funded with Cryptocurrency."

It's the first country to officially look to use bitcoin to facilitate imports/trade finance. It's also making bitcoin miners within the country sell bitcoin to the Iranian Central Bank. Venezuela also put a national crypto mining pool in place.

This is big news. The reaction could be interesting to say the least (but ultimately, I think it doesn't matter - as there's not going to be any way to stop this).

 

[Leo]

It demonstrates that industrial use of gold is peripheral.

Is peripheral industrial use @ ~7.48% = 0? If it is not zero, then the statement was factually incorrect. Bitcoin has a market cap 2.5% the size of the investment/reserve gold market. If 7.48% is peripheral, how did this thread get to 25 pages on something of even less consequence?

Is there utility in gold in the production of jewelry? Of course there is, it's a multi-billion dollar industry.

As per the world gold council, they class gold jewelry as an investment category (because they have the experience to know that people worldwide lead with the value of gold as their main rationale in buying it).

The Gold Council may have a vested interest in having it regarded as such, but I find no such statement on their site. Can you point to where the Gold Council made that claim, and the source that confirms that investment is the primary driver for buying gold jewelry? How many people buying a ring in your average high-street retailer consider that purchase as an investment? Most purchasers subsequently give it away, yielding a 100% loss on that investment. In short, anyone buying retail gold jewelry as an investment is a moron.

 

[Leo]

It's the first country to officially look to use bitcoin to facilitate imports/trade finance. It's also making bitcoin miners within the country sell bitcoin to the Iranian Central Bank. Venezuela also put a national crypto mining pool in place.

Hardly a surprise when they've been using it for years to bypass international sanctions, even doing so openly . From protecting vulnerable citizens' wealth from seizure under despotic regimes to propping up those self same rulers....it really does provide something for everyone!

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Most purchasers subsequently give it away, yielding a 100% loss on that investment. In short, anyone buying retail gold jewelry as an investment is a moron.

Hi Leo

You are beginning to make it sound like Bitcoin.

Brendan

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Never a dull moment...

"Iran Amends Law to Allow Imports to be Funded with Cryptocurrency."

It's the first country to officially look to use bitcoin to facilitate imports/trade finance. It's also making bitcoin miners within the country sell bitcoin to the Iranian Central Bank. Venezuela also put a national crypto mining pool in place.

This is big news. The reaction could be interesting to say the least (but ultimately, I think it doesn't matter - as there's not going to be any way to stop this).

This is not an endorsement of bitcoin. It is just an extension of the criminal use of bitcoin, it is sanctions busting. Now if they started to hold long term reserves in bitcoin, well that would be news, it would mean a sovereign nation believing in its "store of value".
But rogue nations using bitcoin for any purpose should be seen by enthusiasts as a negative development. Most such enthusiasts accept that a major threat to the currency would be concerted action by the major nations to suppress it. So far that hasn't happened as the powers that be don't take crypto seriously - rogue nations avoiding sanctions could change that.

 

[Leo]

Hi Leo

You are beginning to make it sound like Bitcoin.

Brendan

No, not quite. No personal experience thankfully, but I hear you can buy forgiveness with gold jewelry... so it can serve a purpose

 

[tecate]

Is peripheral industrial use @ ~7.48% = 0? If it is not zero, then the statement was factually incorrect. Bitcoin has a market cap 2.5% the size of the investment/reserve gold market. If 7.48% is peripheral, how did this thread get to 25 pages on something of even less consequence?

You can take it out of context to support your world view all day long, Leo....but that's precisely what you're doing. 7.48% remains peripheral relative to the other use case of gold - which is as a store of value. Its value is derived from that.

The Gold Council may have a vested interest in having it regarded as such, but I find no such statement on their site. Can you point to where the Gold Council made that claim, and the source that confirms that investment is the primary driver for buying gold jewelry? How many people buying a ring in your average high-street retailer consider that purchase as an investment? Most purchasers subsequently give it away, yielding a 100% loss on that investment. In short, anyone buying retail gold jewelry as an investment is a moron.

Go back and read through the thread - I'm not digging up another link to their report - it's here and on record. That's their belief. You can believe that everyone else is a moron all you want. It changes nothing.

Hardly a surprise when they've been using it for years to bypass international sanctions, even doing so openly . From protecting vulnerable citizens' wealth from seizure under despotic regimes to propping up those self same rulers....it really does provide something for everyone!

A surprise? No. A significant development? Yes. Remember, if as a state they're going to pay in bitcoin, their overseas counterparts will be trading with them in bitcoin. They're also making efforts to secure more bitcoin so that they can finance more imports/trade.
As regards the moral standpoint, there are no innocents on either side of sanctions. The ones that suffer under sanctions are ordinary people - not either of the government actors implicated.

You are beginning to make it sound like Bitcoin.

You're doing well with your predictions so far, Brendan - keep them coming.

Now if they started to hold long term reserves in bitcoin, well that would be news, it would mean a sovereign nation believing in its "store of value".

See above re the morals/ethics of sanctions and the weaponising of the international monetary system.
As regards holding reserves, think a little about what you're saying in relation to what Iran and its central bank are doing. That would be my recommendation.

 

[WolfeTone]

It is just an extension of the criminal use of bitcoin

Criminal under whose law?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Criminal under whose law?

Ah Wolfie, so predictable. I wasn't calling Iran criminal though personally I believe they are but let's agree to differ on that. It is an extension of criminal use in that it is attempting to get around US law, down't matter that you have no respect for US law.

 

[tecate]

Criminal under whose law?

Your point stands despite his response

 

[WolfeTone]

Ah Wolfie, so predictable. I wasn't calling Iran criminal though personally I believe they are but let's agree to differ on that. It is an extension of criminal use in that it is attempting to get around US law, down't matter that you have no respect for US law.

That BOHA that you are so familiar with, do you inhale from it?

 

[MaxGordon]

I'd said he puffs on it but claims a Clinton.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I'm getting great fun guessing which of the quadumvirate (@tecate , @Gus1970 ,@MaxGordon ,@WolfeTone ) is chosen to echo the "likes" to attacks on me. I would be flattered except, alas, I don't have much respect for said quadumvirate. Still waiting for Max's list of questions which he says I don't answer. Carefully avoiding rabbit holes dug by Wolfie like "US bad, Iran good".

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

As regards holding reserves, think a little about what you're saying in relation to what Iran and its central bank are doing. That would be my recommendation.

I couldn't be bothered diving into the thinking of the mad mullahs, but I would bet my bottom Ripple that if they could safely trade in US$ and hold US$ without fear of freeze they would dump bitcoin as quick as they would remove Israel from the map.