Brendan Burgess
Founder
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This is where the hypocrisy comes in. You summarily dismiss Bitcoin on the basis that it lacks intrinsic value yet for all of your days, you've been supportive of a currency (and terrible store of value) that has zero intrinsic value - the €uro (and the dollar and all other FIAT currencies).
tulips don't even come into consideration here in the Bitcoin context.
Exactly my point. You won't look past intrinsic value and you won't acknowledge my rationale as to how Bitcoin offsets intrinsic value yet for all of your life you've been using and continue to use a currency that has no intrinsic value. You can't just dismiss the arguments you don't like. I say again - it's hypocritical.I haven't commented much on fiat currencies.
Hypocrisy is where you completely slate one store of value/currency on the basis of it lacking intrinsic value whilst all the while using another currency that has no intrinsic value. It's due an explanation.I don't think I am hypocritical on the issue of Bitcoin. Often in discussing a topic, one can have two mutually exclusive opinions and then you try to resolve them. That is not hypocrisy.
Goldman Sachs have gotten there before you on that one.Hypocrisy would be if I were talking about how worthless Bitcoin was while simultaneously building up a big holding of it.
Absolutely - and that's why I'm calling you out on it.You can't just dismiss the arguments you don't like.
So there's over exuberance in markets be it the Celtic Tiger Property Market, the dot com boom, Bitcoin or the bonkers equities markets right now that go up in the face of every economic indicator suggesting that they should be going the other way. There was over exuberance in 2017/8 and that's why I exited the market temporarily at that point.There was a mania which caused people to pay massive amounts of money for something which was worth very little.
We're eleven years on since the Bitcoin network went live. We're a couple of years on since the hype peaked. There's little in the way of 'mania' right now.Bitcoin is a mania where people are paying huge amounts of money for something which is worth nothing.
As I've mentioned, I've read a couple of books on the psychology of markets. As I have been doing, I will get in and out of the market if I sense that there's an irrationality about the market. That's not to be found right now.Clearly you are part of this mania, so you can't see it as a mania. That is why I think you should read the Madness of Crowds. You will laugh at the stupidity of these clever people and then you might go "Oh, oh..."
And you accuse me of being offensive in calling it a "cult". A world without government. A world without banks. A world without debt. Debt is an essential part of the human economic condition. People accumulate assets during their economic lives to support them in retirement. This is in large part facilitated through the financial system by the older asset rich generation lending to the income rich younger generation.With that debt backed FIAT approach came exactly that - debt. Is that what society needs - everyone up to their tonsils in debt?
Of course I did and I do. There is no-one that has participated in this discussion on AAM and is open minded in their consideration of Bitcoin and decentralised currencies (evidently that excludes yourself and Brendan) that considers themselves part of a 'cult' on account of that.And you accuse me of being offensive in calling it a "cult".
WHERE did I ever suggest that we should have a world without government? Where?A world without government.
WHERE did I ever suggest that we should have a world without banks? Where?A world without banks.
WHERE did I ever suggest that we should have a world without debt? Where?A world without debt.
And the same can be achieved via reinstatement of a savings culture.People accumulate assets during their economic lives to support them in retirement.
Whilst also overburdening them with sovereign debt and encouraging them to over-extend themselves on personal debt.This is in large part facilitated through the financial system by the older asset rich generation lending to the income rich younger generation.
Dear God!Maybe there is a niche for a cult to indulge in a government free, bank free, debt free, interest rate free utopia.
@Dublinbay12 made a suggestion to you with regard to monetary system evolution and development which is entirely relevant to this statement of yours:But the real world will stick to the modern structures of our civilisation, including a well regulated fiat currency, which have been developed over centuries.
If on the one hand you accept the development of monetary systems over centuries, perhaps you might also consider being open to that ongoing development as per his suggestion above. Just a thought your Dukeness.Dublinbay12 said:Your point alludes to the evolution of the monetary system much like mine, so why not give Bitcoin the same opportunity?
And that's exactly why I will take you to task on it - because it's a misrepresentation. Bitcoin is not a 'cult'. I don't belong to any 'cults'. How am I 'anti' everything? I believe in iterative progression. Nothing stands still (although some stand in the way!). You refer to the ongoing development of monetary systems - and that's where my interest lies.Others will recognise what I mean so please don't prolong the semantic debate on this point.
There is also a reference to the cult of the equity which is the blind belief in the equity markets. I am not suggesting that you are worshipping any guru or engaging in arcane spiritual practices.
But you have adopted an irrational belief that a bag of hot air is worth something. I am not sure whether you believe it is worth $1 , $10,000 or $100,000. But anything over $1 is a cult. It's an irrational devotion to something with no substance.
tecate said:You summarily dismiss Bitcoin on the basis that it lacks intrinsic value yet for all of your days, you've been supportive of a currency (and terrible store of value) that has zero intrinsic value - the €uro (and the dollar and all other FIAT currencies).
How do you square that? You'll say that its backed by the government. In real terms, what does that even mean? What does it mean to the people of <insert long list of a gazillion countries that have mismanaged their sovereign currencies>? What does it mean to citizens of all the other countries where their central banks/governments have made mistakes in tinkering with monetary policy that have cost them dearly?
How Bitcoin Offsets Intrinsic Value
And it is right here in the weakness of FIAT currency that Bitcoin is offsetting that intrinsic value requirement in spades. You don't get this - but one by one, millions do so. It's the fact that people trust in it because it works within completely trustless parameters. There is no tinkering - it's all set out and pre-programmed. Nobody will be printing off more of it. Nobody will be tinkering with it. Nobody will be left wondering what some unelected unknown officials will do in setting its interest rate - as all stakeholders already know. There's no mystery - the rules of the game are totally transparent. This built in assumed lack of trust is where people are finding value in Bitcoin. They're also being led towards this realisation due to sustained mismanagement of FIAT money and an ever growing distrust of those that manage sovereign currencies.
. I invite you to address that.
As regards your suggestion that any valuation over $1 is a travesty
If we're going by what Duke has said, then it's backed by nothing, nada, zilch. That leaves your claim against Bitcoin as a double standard.Duke has explained this more than once to you and in a much more informed way than I can.
It's only now you're worried about that?It's unhelpful to anyone trying to follow this thread
Well, you setup a valuation/price prediction thread. My prediction for year end 2019 was the most accurate on AAM.Have you given your own valuation of Bitcoin on askaboutmoney? Is it worth $1 or $1m? How did you arrive at it.
I must say Boss you are winning this one,
In terms of arriving at that valuation, this is something that we both discussed last year and with that, there's some info pending from you as per this post here.
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