Who speaks for the taxpayer?

[Purple]

Animal Farm is not an appropriate analogy. As I recall, not everything was open and above board on Jones Farm, not everything was quite as it seemed.

That's what makes it an appropriate analogy. There is a controversy at the moment where a lobbyist had the personal phone number of a government minister and contacted him directly rather than going through his civil service contacts. It is totally correct to criticise the minister for that. I would be very surprised if some trade union leaders didn't have the phone numbers of government ministers and didn't contact them directly. Trade unions are lobby groups who represent the interests of their members and only the interests of their members, the national interest be damned. They should have no more access, influence or power than any other lobbyist from any other lobby group, be it Communicorp, the tobacco industry, the CIF, the IFA, IBEC or anyone else. Unfortunately they are presented by their media outlet (RTE) as morally and ethically superior to other lobby groups and their motives are never questioned.

You are reading paper headlines that dramatise and exaggerate greatly what is actually occurring. The €200m figure as per the government report on equal pay is already being contested for its validity. Reading between the lines of the union 'demands' it is clear to me that they are prepared to enter a negotiation that would significantly reduce that figure and, or, subsume it into the overall payroll bill over a number of years and not to be paid in one big fat cheque. But admittedly, that is speculation.
As it stands, I can only go with what is written down officially. That is, industrial action will only occur if the government fail to engage, or any engagement fails to have the capacity to reach a resolution. In other words, (my interpretation) the teachers are taxpayers, they have a right to have a say, and they choose their trade union to represent their views. If those views are ignored then they will take what they perceive to be appropriate measures.

Fair enough, I hope you are right.

Wanting everyone to have an equal voice is desirable. But what do you mean in practical terms? Do you mean every decision of government should go back to the people for a vote? I'm sure you can see how impractical that would be?

No, of course not. I'm looking for representative democracy to be front and center rather than lobbyists and politicians or lobbyists and civil servants effectively making decisions away from the people and their elected representatives.

I have already shown you how you lobby the government for own views and interests to be considered by government. This is open to everyone who is capable of doing so.
People who choose not to engage, refuse to engage, choose not, or refuse, to have representation for their views, that is their entitlement - but it is a bit rich that they then complain about those who do choose to have representation.

The same argument can be made for tax evasion and the black economy; sure we could all do it so don't criticise those who do.
When I vote I choose to have representation and that's the only representation I should need.

 

[TheBigShort]

I would be very surprised if some trade union leaders didn't have the phone numbers of government ministers and didn't contact them directly.

I would be very surprised if the representatives of any lobby group did not have direct contact or access with the Minister with regard to dealing with issues pertaining directly to their interests, as long as all such contact or access, and the details of that contact, is recorded and open to public scrutiny lest the interests of one lobby group unduly impinges, encroaches, interferes etc on the interests of any other lobby group or on the national interest.

Trade unions are lobby groups who represent the interests of their members and only the interests of their members, the national interest be damned.

That is just your opinion. It is easily countered with saying equality of pay is in the national interest.

I'm looking for representative democracy to be front and center rather than lobbyists and politicians or lobbyists and civil servants effectively making decisions away from the people and their elected representatives.

We have representative democracy, it is called the Dáil. Unless you have some other format then don't keep it a secret, let's hear it.

When I vote I choose to have representation and that's the only representation I should need.

But that is the same for all voters! Even ones who have polar oppposite views to your own!! So how do you square that circle?
Are the people you voted for in power? Did they say at election time that they would restore pay equality for teachers, or did they say they would freeze or cut teachers pay?

 

[Purple]

I would be very surprised if the representatives of any lobby group did not have direct contact or access with the Minister with regard to dealing with issues pertaining directly to their interests, as long as all such contact or access, and the details of that contact, is recorded and open to public scrutiny lest the interests of one lobby group unduly impinges, encroaches, interferes etc on the interests of any other lobby group or on the national interest.

I'd be very surprised if there's a record of every call ever minister takes from a union official or any other lobbyist.

That is just your opinion. It is easily countered with saying equality of pay is in the national interest.

It's easy to say anything but it's harder to convince everyone its true, unless you have your own TV channel. The Republicans in America have Fox News, the trade unions in Ireland have RTE.

We have representative democracy, it is called the Dáil.

That's my point. Any vested interest group which inserts itself between the people and their Dáil is, in my opinion, undermining democracy.

But that is the same for all voters! Even ones who have polar oppposite views to your own!! So how do you square that circle?

What circle?

 

[TheBigShort]

I'd be very surprised if there's a record of every call ever minister takes from a union official or any other lobbyist.

There is. Just like there is a record of all phone calls you make.

The Republicans in America have Fox News, the trade unions in Ireland have RTE.

More assumptions, trade unions dont own RTE. That may be your perception but you need to back it up with facts, otherwise its just bluster.

That's my point. Any vested interest group which inserts itself between the people and their Dáil is, in my opinion, undermining democracy.

What are you talking about? The Dail empowers the Taoiseach to elect cabinet ministers to enact policies. It is the Dail that authorises the system you are complaining about!

What circle?

The voters on the exact opposite side to your views - how can an elected government decide between policies that some people agree with and others who dont, but are equally entitled to representation?
Think about it, its not hard to figure out!

 

[Purple]

There is. Just like there is a record of all phone calls you make.

Really? You think there's a record of the subject and content of every phone call I make, from any phone to anyone which can be accessed and interrogated? Don't be silly.

More assumptions, trade unions dont own RTE. That may be your perception but you need to back it up with facts, otherwise its just bluster.

I'm bading it on their unionised workforce and their biased treatment of industrial relations issues.

What are you talking about? The Dail empowers the Taoiseach to elect cabinet ministers to enact policies. It is the Dail that authorises the system you are complaining about!

I don't know what point you are making here.

The voters on the exact opposite side to your views - how can an elected government decide between policies that some people agree with and others who dont, but are equally entitled to representation?
Think about it, its not hard to figure out!

I don't know what point you are making here either.

 

[TheBigShort]

You think there's a record of the subject and content of every phone call I make, from any phone to anyone which can be accessed and interrogated?.

No of course not. But there is a record of every phone call. Its no big deal if a trade union official calls a Minister on New Years Eve and wishes him/her HNY!
But if there is an industrial relations dispute occuring at the time then the Minister will need to account for the content of that phone call. Its not hard to figure. The current controversy is a prime example of how such access to a Minister can lead to alleged distortions of fact and alleged corruption.

 

[TheBigShort]

I'm bading it on their unionised workforce and their biased treatment of industrial relations issues.

I think their treatment of industrial relations issues is generally impartial. If there is any bias, or rather perceived bias, I tend to think it is favour of the employers.
Simply giving all sides of an industrial relations dispute a platform to air their grievances is what you should expect from a public broadcaster. This is in marked difference to private sector media organisations that monopolise media content in favour of their own self interest.

I don't know what point you are making here.

You point to the Dail as the only body that should represent the views of the people that elected it. The same Dail elects a Taoiseach who in turn appoints Ministers to enact policies that are typically shaped and formed from listening to the interests of lobby groups, through Dail committees, through international best practice, through EU Directives etc...etc...All with the approval of the Dail, to which you accept is representative of the people.

 

[Purple]

I think their treatment of industrial relations issues is generally impartial. If there is any bias, or rather perceived bias, I tend to think it is favour of the employers.

Given you have strongly left-wing views and are a die-hard trade union supporter if you think they are generally impartial then they probably aren't.
I an an atheist and have a strong dislike of traditional RC church structures. I agree with most of RTE's coverage of those topics so I have to conclude that they have an anti Church bias.

You point to the Dail as the only body that should represent the views of the people that elected it. The same Dail elects a Taoiseach who in turn appoints Ministers to enact policies that are typically shaped and formed from listening to the interests of lobby groups, through Dail committees, through international best practice, through EU Directives etc...etc...All with the approval of the Dail, to which you accept is representative of the people.

When one guy in the room is holding a hand grenade with the pin pulled out and/ or a loaded gun they tend to get the lions share of attention. The unions have the hardware and the willingness to use it.

 

[Leo]

No of course not. But there is a record of every phone call.

I'm sure you know those records are privately held by the telcos and are not available to the general public or the authorities in the absence of a court order / search warrant. So they're not as you suggested 'recorded and open to public scrutiny lest the interests of one lobby group unduly impinges, encroaches, interferes etc on the interests of any other lobby group or on the national interest.'

 

[TheBigShort]

Given you have strongly left-wing views and are a die-hard trade union supporter if you think they are generally impartial then they probably aren't.

Given you have die-hard anti-trade union views (I think you referred them as a cancer) then its unlikely that anything you say about them is unlikely to be in anyway fair, particularly if it is not fact based and relies on language more suited to a demagogue.

When one guy in the room is holding a hand grenade with the pin pulled out and/ or a loaded gun they tend to get the lions share of attention. The unions have the hardware and the willingness to use it.

Say no more!

 

[Purple]

Given you have die-hard anti-trade union views (I think you referred them as a cancer) then its unlikely that anything you say about them is unlikely to be in anyway fair, particularly if it is not fact based and relies on language more suited to a demagogue.

Double negative there BS... Anyway, I fully accept that I don't like them though I did support their stance recently with Dunnes Stores.

Say no more!

I'm glad we agree on something.

 

[TheBigShort]

I'm sure you know those records are privately held by the telcos and are not available to the general public or the authorities in the absence of a court order / search warrant. So they're not as you suggested 'recorded and open to public scrutiny lest the interests of one lobby group unduly impinges, encroaches, interferes etc on the interests of any other lobby group or on the national interest.'

The phone of the Minister will typically be the property of the Dept s/he is in charge of. If there is an allegation of crime or corruption or other malpractice it is within the power of that Dept to deny or release information that such phone calls took place.
But you are missing the whole point. If a Minister is saying one thing privately to a lobbyist, and another thing publicly, the Minister is now beholden to that lobbyist as there will be nothing to stop the lobbyist releasing his personal phone records into the public.
So if there is any substantive difference in between what is being said privately, regarding the teachers dispute, and what is being said publicly, it will come to the fore if the teachers union feel what has been agreed 'privately' is not being honoured.
But that is not the case, the details of the teachers dispute are up front and open for all to see.

 

[Leo]

The phone of the Minister will typically be the property of the Dept s/he is in charge of. If there is an allegation of crime or corruption or other malpractice it is within the power of that Dept to deny or release information that such phone calls took place.

They won't have access to the records to be in a position to do that. They may have access to the phone bills, and with that, numbers dialed. But the only way to get accurate and comprehensive logs of calls received is from the telco records which are protected.

But you are missing the whole point. If a Minister is saying one thing privately to a lobbyist, and another thing publicly, the Minister is now beholden to that lobbyist as there will be nothing to stop the lobbyist releasing his personal phone records into the public.

Any lobbyist ever considering that as an option would need to start looking for a new career.

 

[TheBigShort]

They may have access to the phone bills, and with that, numbers dialed. But the only way to get accurate and comprehensive logs of calls received is from the telco records which are protected.

Granted.

Any lobbyist ever considering that as an option would need to start looking for a new career.

Which is exactly the point. The allegation is made that the State is open to corruption through the lobbying of vested interests that have the ear of Ministers and their departments and put ‘guns to their heads’ and agree deals behind closed doors.

This is the realm of deep corruption on the scale of the mafia etc, these are allegations being made by Purple with regard to trade unions.

This is deep criminal corruption akin to what may be in a fascist government or some banana republic.

With regard to the teachers dispute, the evidence is to the contrary. The details of the dispute and the positions held by the parties involved are officially recorded and open to public scrutiny.

There is not one shred of evidence to suggest otherwise, doesn’t stop the colourful dramatic language of ‘gun-pointing’ and ‘ransoms’ etc. It makes for great dramatics, for what is actually quite a dull process.

 

[Purple]

This is the realm of deep corruption on the scale of the mafia etc, these are allegations being made by Purple with regard to trade unions.

No it's not. The gun to the head of the Irish people is that the union will stop children being educated or sick people being treated in hospitals etc unless they get what they want. That means that their interests carry more weight than those of the public at large or the poor and vulnerable in particular. The rhetoric from unions, supported by RTE by never questioning that rhetoric, is that the unions represent that greater good and are also representing the interests of the poor and vulnerable. That is of course patently untrue and union leadership presenting themselves in that way is deeply disingenuous. That all brings us back to the original question; who speaks for the tax payer, or the public at large, since the interests of vested interest groups seeking to take a larger and larger share of the national cake are by their nature at odds with the broader interest of the country.

Maybe it's the dishonesty, maybe it's the greed or maybe it's the sanctimonious moral superiority of unions that makes me dislike them so much but I think the real reason is their betrayal of those they were really set up to help and their willingness to hurt the most vulnerable in society without even the slightest moral pause.

 

[TheBigShort]

No it's not. The gun to the head of the Irish people is that the union will stop children being educated or sick people being treated in hospitals etc unless they get what they want. That means that their interests carry more weight than those of the public at large or the poor and vulnerable in particular. The rhetoric from unions, supported by RTE by never questioning that rhetoric, is that the unions represent that greater good and are also representing the interests of the poor and vulnerable. That is of course patently untrue and union leadership presenting themselves in that way is deeply disingenuous. That all brings us back to the original question; who speaks for the tax payer, or the public at large, since the interests of vested interest groups seeking to take a larger and larger share of the national cake are by their nature at odds with the broader interest of the country.

Maybe it's the dishonesty, maybe it's the greed or maybe it's the sanctimonious moral superiority of unions that makes me dislike them so much but I think the real reason is their betrayal of those they were really set up to help and their willingness to hurt the most vulnerable in society without even the slightest moral pause.

More bogus accusations backed up by absolutely nothing.

 

[Purple]

More bogus accusations backed up by absolutely nothing.

It's an opinion. This is an discussion forum.

 

[TheBigShort]

It's an opinion. This is an discussion forum.

I know, I'm merely pointing out that it is an opinion that carries no substantive weight without actually backing it up with factual material.

 

[Itchy]

...dishonesty... greed ....sanctimonious moral superiority .... betrayal of those they were really set up to help.... their willingness to hurt the most vulnerable in society....

Of all the bad elements of Irish society reflecting these traits, its unions that stand out? I hope you dont ever need help from someone in a union, if this is what you feel when you look at them.

 

[LS400]

Good phrase and very true, without the question Mark!!

Of all the bad elements of Irish society reflecting these traits, its the Unions that stand out.

Very interesting discussion, and not a mention of Bit coin.