So, I have just claimed my Irish pension. I had to list my full employment history including 15 years spent in UK. I had 23 Irish years. My pension was calculated on my Irish contributions only, and my Irish pension is based on having 20-29 years, and is therefore less than the full Irish state pension (€236/week). I did not say I was also applying for a UK pension, and they did not ask. I could have asked for my UK years to be added to my Irish ones but then I'd only get the full Irish pension and no UK one. I had already decided to top up my UK pension, and I am now also receiving that. Definitely it is better financially to claim the two separately but you still declare your work history to both countries. No untruths at all.
Key Post UK State Pension - Make voluntary contributions to qualify for UK pension on top of Irish pension
- Thread starter DannyBoyD
- Start date
Thanks for contributing Stitcher and congratulations on achieving retirement. I recently posted a question on here asking for personal experiences of claiming both pensions (UK and Ireland) but got no responses. This is helpful.
I’m interested in your comment that you could have achieved a full Irish pension if you’d added the UK NICS to your Irish PRSI record. May I ask how do you know this as I’ve seen this come up a few times on AAM and as far as I can recall it’s been discredited.
I’ll separately look up the Irish calculation formula to consider UK NICS and share it here.
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This is the Irish State Pension application form apparently called SPC1.
The intro section states that "If you live in Ireland and you have previously lived or worked in an EU country, the UK or a country with which Ireland has a Bilateral Social Security Agreement, we will apply for a pension to that country on your behalf."
Section 13 of the form asks: "13. Have you ever lived or worked outside of Ireland?"
It seems from your post above that you answered yes to this question .... do you know if the DSP contacted the UK for details of your UK NICS record or not?
Maybe they did (unbeknownst to you) and used these to calculate the best Irish state pension that you could be entitled to. Maybe they also applied for the UK state pension on your behalf as the form says they will but that your application took over?
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These seem to be the latest operational guidelines for the Department of Social Protection (DSP).
There is a section in there dealing with foreign social insurance contributions (in your case NICS).
In a nutshell they may be used:
(1) To help you qualify for an Irish State Pension (This is different from calculating the actual benefit amount).
(2) To calculate your Irish State pension benefit amount by using the following formula:
Calculation of rate of payment
The rate of pension, where insurance contributions in another country are being combined with Irish contributions, is calculated as follows:
Step 1:
The notional pension is calculated. Notional pension is that which would be payable if all social insurance contributions, both full-rate Irish and non-Irish, were treated as Irish contributions. The full-rate Irish and non-Irish reckonable contributions are therefore added together and the total is then divided by the number of years to get the yearly average number of contributions.
Step 2:
The following formula is then used
A multiplied by B divided by C
(AxB)/C
A = the notional rate of pension i.e. the rate (personal plus increase for a qualified adult, if applicable (see below re qualified adult)) which would be payable if all social insurance, both full-rate Irish and foreign, was treated as full rate Irish social insurance.
B = the no. of full rate Irish contributions
C = the total no. of contributions (full rate Irish + foreign)
So my conclusion is that you must declare any foreign work history when applying for an Irish State Pension and if you do, an additional calculation (as above) is performed (in addition to TCA and Average). Presumably the best outcome of the three (or maybe more than 3) is the Irish pension that is offered. I also conclude that declaring foreign work history to the DSP as part of this process has no affect on any UK pension entitlement.
I'm not claiming to be an expert on this but I've seen so many contradictory statements about how this works on AAM, I was pleased to see DannyBoyD make such a definitive statement on the topic and simply asked what was the rationale behind it.
In my case I expect to achieve maximum UK state pension and about 85% of the Irish state pension. I have the time left to pay additional UK NICS (after the min no required of 35) and I am prepared to do so if it means that I can boost my Irish state pension beyond 85%. That's my motivation for trying to establish clarity on this topic - From what I've established so far I think that's not an option.
Therefore for now and from the limited information to hand I believe it is advantageous to apply for both Irish and foreign pensions together through the Irish system. This may change when the UK state retirement age changes to 67 in a few years.
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You can do whatever you like, I won't stop you.
But the idea of this entire thread is to help people pay UK NICs so they can claim a UK state pension in addition to any Irish state pension and / or any private pension they may have.
The tone you are using in some of your comments may be the reason you dont get responses. This has been an unbelievably helpful thread, led by @DannyBoyD and others. Whether we take the advice or not is up to each of us. I have very happily paid my extra contributions because of the reassurance I have received here, but everyone can make up their own mind.
I am trying to make up my own mind.... as we will all do.
A clear statement was made about the application approach when entitled to two state pensions and despite requests for substantiation I've not seen anything helpful.
For the record I applaud DannyBoyD’s efforts on here too as many Irish people will surely benefit from his energy and knowledge.
magscollins
Registered User
- Messages
- 15
Am I correct that the online process is to complete it online and then to print and post it with any additional paperwork / information. They won’t see the online application until they get it in the post. Is that correct ? Just wanted to clarify as often online would mean that the application is submitted to them. Thanks.
Should I just hold out for the full 39 weeks or is there a number I need to call in order to get confirmation that they actually received my payments?
I’ve just received my letter from UK and I can buy back years to add to 10 I had. I hope to continue to buy back years to get to 35 needed. In addition I should get a full contributory Irish pension -I wish to retire at 62 in a couple of years and have been working in Ireland since 1995. Please can I ask if I will be taxed on my uk state pension. I assume only the Irish one is not taxed. Thank you.
You can submit it directly online if you have the Gateway account set up, and it will be processed faster:
gov.uk/guidance/ apply-to-pay-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions-when-abroad-cf83
(I have to break the link up to be allowed to post it - remove the space to get it working again).
As far as I'm aware, you'll be taxed on both. They will be paid to you gross, but it's all taxable income, so tax code would be adjusted in order to collect the tax due.
Yes, i answered yes, and I expected a query from them on my UK work record, and whether i would claim separately or add to my irish record, given all the info available about this. They may have enquired from UK and would have found out I was in the process of applying for a separate UK pension. I only got one reply stating my Irish pension entitlement, which was less than the full one due to missing years.
Regarding buying more UK contributions than you need, I somehow doubt you can use 35 for a UK pension and carryover the rest to top up your Irish pension. However, thats a question to ask a person in the Irish pension service.
magscollins
Registered User
- Messages
- 15
Ok fab thanks. Just that it said I needed to print off and sign and post. I think I made a small mistake on one date. Can I redo online or maybe just amend / correct the postal one. Also could not get all my work history into the online version. I think I didn’t do within my account so will redo logged in.
Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s genuinely interesting.
I concluded some time ago that I can’t add to my Irish state pension with surplus NICS. Of course I’d love to be proved wrong.
May I ask one further question please? As I explained earlier the DSP has a formula to calculate an Irish pension benefit amount taking your NICS record into account.
Did you see any evidence of this in your case eg did they share the various benefit amounts under the range of formulas open to them ….eg….TCA = €xxx.xx, Average = €xxx.xx, etc…..or just inform you of the actual amount and you have to assume that they did everything they could to maximise your pension?
Given that the pension entitlement under the average rule is very generous, it is highly unlikely that the alternative pro-rata calculation gives a better result in most cases when taking foreign (EU or UK) national insurance into account
As the Total Contribution Account comes into force that may change
As the Total Contribution Account comes into force that may change
magscollins
Registered User
- Messages
- 15
Thanks all. Redid it after I logged in and it is now submitted. Fingers crossed. Thanks everyone for your help and advice. Seems so straightforward once it is submitted.