Tax defrauders list but no welfare defrauders list

Protocol said:
As well as the Land Regsitry, there is the older Registry of Deeds.

I have seen signs on derelict and vacant buildings in Wexford, where the local authority is asking people to provide information on who owns the building.

It is really embarrassing, that in a modern society, that positions itself as a leader in ICT, we don't know who owns all parcels of land.
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In fairness, it is not always that simple. I was executor to a probate many years ago, bachelor farmer in question, no records kept up to date, questionable transfers in the past, 5 years after we had distributed the estate, another bank account surfaced. It was not a fun experience.

If people die intestate, if land was never properly handed over in the first place, it gets messy. Bear in mind as well that the freehold of the land can be held by someone else (certainly the case around Naas as an example).
 
extopia said:
as a lot of welfare transfers in Ireland go to people who are not particularly poor, or not at all poor (e.g. child benefits, contributory pensions and so on
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Contributory pensions are not welfare as you must work and pay prsi contributions to get it, if you don't have 40 years contributions you won't get a full pension ,non contributory pensions are welfare payments, big difference
 
joe sod said:
Contributory pensions are not welfare as you must work and pay prsi contributions to get it, if you don't have 40 years contributions you won't get a full pension ,non contributory pensions are welfare payments, big difference
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€11.30 isn't that big of a difference :p
 
joe sod said:
Contributory pensions are not welfare as you must work and pay prsi contributions to get it, if you don't have 40 years contributions you won't get a full pension ,non contributory pensions are welfare payments, big difference
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Well, it's a stretch to say that state payments are only classifiable as welfare if you have your PRSI contributions. Social welfare is a safety net for working people as well as everything else it's tarred as. And as far as I know the contributory pension is included in Social Protection spending stats - although I could be wrong, would be delighted if someone could clarify.
 
Yes, the SPC is included in DSP stats, although it is financed by SI conts, and not by tax.

I would not use the term "welfare" to classify social benefits. It is too vague.

I suggest the terms:

universal
social insurance = based on SI contributions
social assistance = means-tested, financed by taxes
 
Protocol said:
Yes, the SPC is included in DSP stats, although it is financed by SI conts, and not by tax.
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A complete accounting fiction. When the SIF was in deficit 2008-2015 was the contributory pension cut? Of course not. The Exchequer finances the deficit.


Protocol said:
I suggest the terms:

universal
social insurance = based on SI contributions
social assistance = means-tested, financed by taxes
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You’ve just suggested the accepted terms used already!
 
extopia said:
Anecdotal stories are not evidence though. I agree of course that it would be good to have more accurate data (or evidence).


We have a fairly generous system - the claim that it's the most generous in Europe is difficult to determine for sure, as a lot of welfare transfers in Ireland go to people who are not particularly poor, or not at all poor (e.g. child benefits, contributory pensions and so on). And the 'structurally incompetent' claim is also difficult to substantiate. Unless you can definitively point to fraud and error data that says otherwise of course.

A couple of personal examples of friends or neighbours or coworkers who are 'gaming' the system doesn't cut the mustard.
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This is a discussion forum. I'm not attempting to cut any mustard, I'm giving an opinion based on personal experience, the general attitude I see to welfare fraud, the general incompetence I see in the State sector and the way in which the system is structured to reward dishonesty.

If you could get what amounts to over €50,000 a year in additional pre-tax income by pretending that your partner was a single parent why, other than personal ethics, would you not do it? Are people really so naive that they think that such abuse is not endemic?
 
extopia said:
Social welfare is a safety net for working people as well as everything else it's tarred as.
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Most welfare goes to working people (people who work). Most welfare fraud is therefore committed by those working people. There are very few people who don't work at all.

If you work and pay taxes and get supports by being dishonest and misrepresenting your circumstances then you are a welfare cheat and a thief. Whether you work or not is of no consequence.
 
Dr Strangelove said:
No it doesn’t. The majority is pensions and illness benefit. Almost all recipients do not work.

Child benefit is a big share as well and depends nothing on work status.
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€15 billion from a €25 billion welfare budget goes on pensions and illness, disability and carer's benefits. Carer's can work part time and plenty do. The €7 billion we spend on housing people should be included since it's a massive social transfer.

Most of the retired people also worked. I was pointing out that the caricature of the scrounger who sits at home all their life on welfare is not an accurate portrayal of the average welfare recipient.
 
For Class A public sector retirees, the pension is co-ordinated (reduced) by the amount of the contributory old age pension. It is paid for by PRSI contributions and considered part of the retirement renumeration.
 
Purple said:
Really?
How many people do you know who claim single parents benefits but are in fact cohabiting, often with the father of the children? I work with at least 4 men doing this. They have good incomes and their partner gets housing supports and child supports as a single parent. I suspect that this is the norm rather than the exception. When FIS, HAP/council housing and other supports are taken into account I wouldn't be surprised if the cost ran into the billions.
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This seems extremely common and I’m always amazed at how open people are about it.

Some people just see life as the people vs the government. They don’t even comprehend that someone might not be impressed with what they are doing.

A couple I know did it for years. Got a council house out of it. Both have decent jobs, although I suspect he gets a lot of cash in hand. As they didn’t need to save for a deposit and their rent is set at 15% of declared income they bought a house in Spain.
 
T McGibney said:
Stealing from the government you mean, while the government steals from the people of Ireland.
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The government only spends the people's money. When someone steals from them they are stealing the people's money.
The government, or more specifically the State employees charged with spending it, wastes the people's money.

Both are immoral but two wrongs don't make a right.
 
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