Tax defrauders list but no welfare defrauders list

[Marsupial]

Years ago I had a discussion with the civil servant in charge of non-con pensions (he introduced me to that term).

He told me that their main issues are:

(1) applicants not declaring all of their assets

(2) recipients saving so much out of their ongoing non-con pension income, that they accumulate enough savings to subsequently fail the means-test


I suspect the non-declaration of all assets is widespread.

As mentioned above, Social Protection is happy to play the long game and await the claimant's demise, following which all is (usually) revealed.

This is, in part, because the bleeding hearted Irish media simply love making a song and dance about poor Biddy O'Gobdaw, aged 93½ who is having her state pension removed by the heartless Minister for Social Protection just because poor Biddy didn't realise that she had to declare the €500,000 that she and her deceased husband Walter won on the Prize Bonds twenty years ago!

 

[Protocol]

The DSP cannot be expected to track every land ownership in the State and and every valuation movement therein, without massive additional resources in back office staff. Even then, such an exercise by any State body would likely raise fundamental personal privacy concerns and might well be illegal.

It's much simpler, more efficient and more cost effective to monitor the estates of their recently deceased clients and extract from those estates settlements representing the cumulative overpayments to date, as is routinely done these days.

I hope that by now, or at least some time soon, all records of land ownership have/would have a PPSN attached, so that there can be automated searches done to match tax and welfare claims with land ownership.

I suspect this does not happen now, as you suggest.

We are all told about advances in software and AI, and Ireland positions itself as a leader in ICT, yet it's funny that we don't apply the same technologies in our own public administration.

 

[T McGibney]

I hope that by now, or at least some time soon, all records of land ownership have/would have a PPSN attached, so that there can be automated searches done to match tax and welfare claims with land ownership.

You do realise that in that scenario, a total randomer anywhere in the world could look up your house on a map and find out, not only your name but your PPSN?

Wow. That would be an absolute bonanza for scammers and identity thieves.

 

[Protocol]

Well, the Revenue and DSP should be able to access the data?

I don't think it's optimal to rely on people's honesty, especially in Ireland.

 

[Marsupial]

Well, the Revenue and DSP should be able to access the data?

Only if it exists. And, currently, it doesn't. Some small farmers in my neck of the woods are farming land that is still registered to their long deceased parents, grandparents or other relatives. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, the Land Registry (which now has some stupid Irish name) only holds records for about 90% of total property in Ireland.

 

[T McGibney]

Well, the Revenue and DSP should be able to access the data?

I don't think it's optimal to rely on people's honesty, especially in Ireland.

Land registry records are by definition public domain information.

I'm not sure what your point is about relying on people's honesty. Pretty much all the tax system operates on a self-assessment basis and the presumption of honesty is a cornerstone of that.

 

[joe sod]

the Land Registry (which now has some stupid Irish name) only holds records for about 90% of total property in Ireland.

thats news, didn't know that, well then where does the state go to find out ownership of a property if its not recorded in the land registry? , surely given the imortance of this topic there should be a dedicated body tasked with finding this information and recording it?

 

[Protocol]

As well as the Land Regsitry, there is the older Registry of Deeds.

I have seen signs on derelict and vacant buildings in Wexford, where the local authority is asking people to provide information on who owns the building.

It is really embarrassing, that in a modern society, that positions itself as a leader in ICT, we don't know who owns all parcels of land.

 

[Marsupial]

It is really embarrassing, that in a modern society, that positions itself as a leader in ICT, we don't know who owns all parcels of land.

It's not at all uncommon across Europe, and probably throughout the rest of the world. I am aware that it's an issue in many rural parts of both Portugal and Spain where owners are expected to take steps to prevent wildfires.

Closer to home, see HERE!

 

[Gordon Gekko]

As mentioned above, Social Protection is happy to play the long game and await the claimant's demise, following which all is (usually) revealed.

This is, in part, because the bleeding hearted Irish media simply love making a song and dance about poor Biddy O'Gobdaw, aged 93½ who is having her state pension removed by the heartless Minister for Social Protection jus because poor Biddy didn't realise that she had to declare the €500,000 that she and her deceased husband Walter won on the Prize Bonds twenty years ago!

Brilliant!

 

[extopia]

Really?
How many people do you know who claim single parents benefits but are in fact cohabiting, often with the father of the children? I work with at least 4 men doing this. They have good incomes and their partner gets housing supports and child supports as a single parent. I suspect that this is the norm rather than the exception. When FIS, HAP/council housing and other supports are taken into account I wouldn't be surprised if the cost ran into the billions.

Well, extrapolating from the particular to the general is a dangerous game.

There's no evidence of large scale welfare abuse in Ireland. Regardless of the size of the problem, the figures are never published in any meaningful way anyway. As I've posted in another thread, the only published report (from 2011) suggests the problem in Ireland is similar to levels elsewhere in Europe, which would put fraud (discounting error) in the €250m-€500m range for 2023.

Have you considered reporting those co-workers by the way?

 

[Purple]

There's no evidence of large scale welfare abuse in Ireland.

I know. If you don't look for evidence you won't find it.

When the head of the housing authority said that people were gaming the system (that's another way of saying defrauding it) the response wasn't "Oh, let's fix that", no, the response was personal attacks and calls for him to resign from politicians, journalists and those involved in the homeless industry. Are those people going to take a balanced and analytical look at the issue?

We have the most generous welfare system in Europe and a structurally incompetent State sector administering and supervising it so I would be very surprised if fraud rates are not high.

 

[Purple]

Have you considered reporting those co-workers by the way?

There's no point. It's endemic.

I did work with a guy whose partner was fostering his sisters two children for over a decade. Of course she wasn't actually fostering them, just claiming the money and housing supports. When they were caught they didn't have to give the money back and didn't lose their big council house.

 

[ClubMan]

There's no point. It's endemic.

Seems odd to moan about state incompetence in this matter but then not do anything about it yourself when you see alleged fraud?

Report suspected social welfare fraud

You can anonymously Report Suspected Fraud to the Department of Social Protection online, by phone or in writing. We investigate, but we do not provide you with any outcomes of these investigations.

www.gov.ie

 

[T McGibney]

Seems odd to moan about state incompetence in this matter but then not do anything about it yourself when you see alleged fraud?

Report suspected social welfare fraud

You can anonymously Report Suspected Fraud to the Department of Social Protection online, by phone or in writing. We investigate, but we do not provide you with any outcomes of these investigations.

www.gov.ie

Fraud is one thing, gaming the system is another.

It's not remotely illegal to game the system.

 

[Forumuser]

There's no point. It's endemic.

I did work with a guy whose partner was fostering his sisters two children for over a decade. Of course she wasn't actually fostering them, just claiming the money and housing supports. When they were caught they didn't have to give the money back and didn't lose their big council house.

So you would like to see those folks lose their "big" council house and become homeless?

 

[Dr Strangelove]

which would put fraud (discounting error) in the €250m-€500m range for 2023.

Adding up fraud and error the way DSP does is completely daft.

They are different problems with different remedies.

Anyway in no system can they ever be reduced to zero, it’s about systems and controls to prevent and detect them.

I’d love to know whether a hundred or a thousand extra welfare inspectors would bring down fraud and error by more than the cost of employing them. I’m not sure DSP knows this itself.

 

[Purple]

So you would like to see those folks lose their "big" council house and become homeless?

Yes.

 

[extopia]

I know. If you don't look for evidence you won't find it.

Anecdotal stories are not evidence though. I agree of course that it would be good to have more accurate data (or evidence).

We have the most generous welfare system in Europe and a structurally incompetent State sector administering and supervising it so I would be very surprised if fraud rates are not high.

We have a fairly generous system - the claim that it's the most generous in Europe is difficult to determine for sure, as a lot of welfare transfers in Ireland go to people who are not particularly poor, or not at all poor (e.g. child benefits, contributory pensions and so on). And the 'structurally incompetent' claim is also difficult to substantiate. Unless you can definitively point to fraud and error data that says otherwise of course.

A couple of personal examples of friends or neighbours or coworkers who are 'gaming' the system doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[Purple]

Seems odd to moan about state incompetence in this matter but then not do anything about it yourself when you see alleged fraud?

Report suspected social welfare fraud

You can anonymously Report Suspected Fraud to the Department of Social Protection online, by phone or in writing. We investigate, but we do not provide you with any outcomes of these investigations.

www.gov.ie

Not to me.