Thanks for the personal remarks, but if you are actually interested in ‘a logical rational to underpin’ Irish neutrality feel free to respond to my effort at post #167.
Thanks for the personal remarks, but if you are actually interested in ‘a logical rational to underpin’ Irish neutrality feel free to respond to my effort at post #167.On one level i'm glad to see a post like this, its rambling, incoherent, full of misconceptions and insulting to those with opposing views. From Trump to conscription to actually fighting in Ukraine, its off the wall. It reveals the fallacy of our current faux-neutrality, and the absence of a logical rationale to underpin the position.
Interesting you've a previous connection to Ukraine. I note that the first images of the cluster bombing of Kharkiv are emerging this afternoon, a likely 'crime against humanity'. I think its fair to say nobody is neutral in their views about that.
Its a good question with a simple answer.
Before looking at that answer first the wrong answer needs to be gotten out of the way. The wrong answer is that we are/should be neutral because they are both as bad as each other. Lets call that answer the Daly/Wallace answer.
While I do recognise that Russia has genuine concerns and the US is not a disinterested observer, there can be no question that western society is far preferable for all its faults and the invasion of Ukraine is inexcusable. The Daly/Wallace answer is nonsense. Many people seeing that the Daly/Wallace answer is nonsense think that there is no good argument for Irelands neutrality, that's not the case.
The simple answer is Irelands self interest is best served by staying out of the way. My father-in-law was taken as slave labour to a factory in Germany by the Nazis, many of his compatriots fared far worse. My grandfather spent WW2 'eating cabbage and drinking tea' at his pre-war job. Both were citizens of small neutral states, one in the way of the Nazi advance, one from Mayo.
Some people feel it would be more honourable for Ireland to join NATO, carry our share of the Wests defence. That at present we are benefiting from its protection without carrying our share of the load. That is an much nonsense as the Daly/Wallace argument. The RAF doesn't patrol Irish airspace because they love us, they do it for their own security, we gat the benefit. We are benefitting from our geographic location. For once in our history, lucky for us. Not taking advantage of the security benefits of our position would be as foolish as not taking advantage of our beautiful beaches or agricultural potential.
Of course things change.
I would absolutely agree that we need to take our cybersecurity seriously. We have no natural advantage there. I would like to see a robust independent Irish cybersecurity system.
Ukraine doesn't need the little bit of military assistance we could give them. So we should make the extra effort on the humanitarian side
I think what we have done is consistent with our in EU as a neutral position.Were not sending our own stocks exactly, EU MS who wish to purchase kit are doing so. Why shouldn't we do both?
I think what we have done is consistent with our in EU as a neutral position.
That fair. Those countries are not neutral but do declare themselves neutral, like us.Finland have one foot in the door with NATO. Sweden have a significant military. We do not.
There's a totally valid argument there that our vulnerabilities could be exploited should we put our head above the parapet. It's a risk, we could pay for it. I would argue that, we already are.You can argue that position needs to change but unless we are going to beef up our military and / or join a European or NATO military pact then I think we should be staying in the box we put ourselves in but not holding back rest of EU.
Tom Clonan with a shorter version, but broadly similar in the grim assessment of what is to come:Expert and sobering assessment of the military situation so far.
Russia taking time to regroup and reorganise. Next wave will be in numbers and not so easily picked off:
We are unaligned. We are not neutral.Its a fallacy to think that we have some kind of special immunity from Russian aggression. We have been 100% complicit in crippling the Russian economy, destroying their currency and bankrupting one bank so far, possibly their state airline. Their central bank is not looking good, sovereign immunity has been torn up. Industry will be crippled, there will be mass unemployment in the coming months, serious economic pain on a largely innocent population. The only people who think we're neutral is us. We're not neutral. It's a farce, is it not? And if not, why not?
I think it's that in a globalised world the actions of governments, companies and banks are more obvious. The Swiss would be up to their usual trick of funding terrorism, oppression and murder all over the world if it wasn't for the changes that were force upon them by America after 9/11. Banks and companies are frightened of being on the wrong side of the USA or the EU so in short yes, it's as you said above.A question to those more familiar with the history of wars. Although nobody is directly getting involved in the war in terms of bodies/armies, there has been, what appears to me at least, a very quick and very united response to this either through sanctions, support or breaking up any relationships with Russian companies. Governments are coming together very quickly to impose multiple rounds of sanctions and offering support and financial aid. Companies are terminating agreements with Russian companies. Sporting organisations are suspending Russian teams. Hell even the Swiss banks are freezing assets which seems unheard of! All of this seems like a good thing btw, am just curious about the nature of it.
So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
Some good point there Ceist Beag. Neutrality (let's not get involved in words like unaligned) is sacred. The Swiss were always a cool and steady race of people looking calculated at everything especially inward and what is good for Switzerland. I see nothing wrong with that. But, even on this ultra conservative membership forum we have people calling for Ireland to relinquish its neutrality. Neutrality is neutrality not half neutrality half belligerence.A question to those more familiar with the history of wars. Although nobody is directly getting involved in the war in terms of bodies/armies, there has been, what appears to me at least, a very quick and very united response to this either through sanctions, support or breaking up any relationships with Russian companies. Governments are coming together very quickly to impose multiple rounds of sanctions and offering support and financial aid. Companies are terminating agreements with Russian companies. Sporting organisations are suspending Russian teams. Hell even the Swiss banks are freezing assets which seems unheard of! All of this seems like a good thing btw, am just curious about the nature of it.
So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
Of course. I am using the word neutral in the Irish sense of the word!We are unaligned. We are not neutral.
By purchasing arms, do you think that changes the 'unaligned' status?What we should be doing now is directly contributing to the purchase of arms for Ukraine. It would be a statement that we are part of the community of free democratic States and we are willing to help defend the values that underpin our way of life. So far we've not done that.
I'm not sure of your substantive point here given the derogatory tone.I'm not in favour of Irish Troops going to Ukraine, obviously as that would be a stupid idea as we've nothing to contribute and we'd need someone to bring them there, taking up spaced for real soldiers.
I'm not particularly gone on joining NATO, but I am in favour of an EU army with us as a contributing member.
This is unprecedented. This is a seminal moment. Last Friday Russia was a functional country. On Monday it was North Korea.A question to those more familiar with the history of wars. Although nobody is directly getting involved in the war in terms of bodies/armies, there has been, what appears to me at least, a very quick and very united response to this either through sanctions, support or breaking up any relationships with Russian companies. Governments are coming together very quickly to impose multiple rounds of sanctions and offering support and financial aid. Companies are terminating agreements with Russian companies. Sporting organisations are suspending Russian teams. Hell even the Swiss banks are freezing assets which seems unheard of! All of this seems like a good thing btw, am just curious about the nature of it.
So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
The difference is the very real threat of nuclear war.So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
I think that this time round, those close to the current Russian dictator are all incredibly wealthy & powerful. By severely limiting them in these ways, surely the West are aiming for discontent. Who knows, someone might even knock off Vlads ... maybe these fine fellas could helpA question to those more familiar with the history of wars. Although nobody is directly getting involved in the war in terms of bodies/armies, there has been, what appears to me at least, a very quick and very united response to this either through sanctions, support or breaking up any relationships with Russian companies. Governments are coming together very quickly to impose multiple rounds of sanctions and offering support and financial aid. Companies are terminating agreements with Russian companies. Sporting organisations are suspending Russian teams. Hell even the Swiss banks are freezing assets which seems unheard of! All of this seems like a good thing btw, am just curious about the nature of it.
So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
No. Unaligned meant that we weren't in NATO or the Warsaw Pact (and by it's original definition that made is a 3rd world country).By purchasing arms, do you think that changes the 'unaligned' status?
We have well trained professional soldiers but we don't have a real army so in that context they aren't real soldiers.I'm not sure of your substantive point here given the derogatory tone.
Yes, we have very limited capabilities which may be useful after the conflict but in the context of what an Army is for (fighting) we have nothing to offer.In fact, we have significant capabilities that could be useful in this conflict. I'm presuming its this phase of the conflict that you wouldn't dispatch troops to i.e. direct hostilities. However, the situation will change. There will be a humanitarian crisis that will emerge. This may require action in Ukraine while hostilities are ongoing for example. There will be medical, engineering and logistical knowledge and know-how required.
Will we round up the Iodine Tablets? I'm not sure where mine are.There is a chance we will see chemical and radiological impacts.
The tiny resources we have to offer would be more than cancelled out by the resources or other armies we'd take up getting us there and folding us into a command structure we have zero experience of.They will need people who can operate in that environment. If its widespread (which is not unimaginable) there will be a need for maximum contribution. We have trained people and equipment. We don't have alot of it/them but we have them.
I agree.But its a mistake to conflate a lack of resources with a lack of professionalism.
An important point. I mentioned above that we've already been attacked by Russia. They Beta-tested their Cyber weapons on us last year. Expect more in the coming months.The key point for Ireland is that warfare has moved on. It is now hybrid warfare which combines all facets of economic, diplomatic, information, military and political actions. These actions take place in all domains land, sea, air and cyber. There is a spectrum of conflict that has a significant grey zone where actions cannot be directly attributed as e.g. as a hostile action by a State actor, but is in fact its naïve to think that state sponsored hacking of Ukraine in the last number of years, was anything other than preparation for this moment. The question for Ireland is, why was the HSE targeted? We might find out thanks to NATO countries are who are now targeting the conti group at the moment.
Yep, which is why we need to sit at the table and be part of the conversation.We are now being left behind in the defence and security conversation in Europe. Those discussions are now happening in the EU not in NATO.
Exactly. We are applying a policy from 1948 to the world of 2022.And as we are arguing about putting our names on bombs and bullets but at the same time contributing to the economic devastation of Russia, we are losing credibility by the day.
Given the traditional antisemitism of the left here maybe it's because the President of Ukraine is Jewish.I see The Tool is feigning being anti Russian in today's IT. But we will never forget his smart ass comment that NATO vs Putin was not a binary.
As for our 4 leftie MEPs who rejected the anti Russian motion in December resulting in Irish MEPs being 46% in support versus the norm of 82% in support.
This is not because our lefties are more leftie than France's. It is a reflection of a deep anti American streak in sections of our body politic, though I suppose the French are not particular Yankee lovers either.
This is a strange situation given that Ireland is second only to Germany in European countries claiming US ancestry and third only to Mexico overall.
I think it's more to do with childish anti-Americanism and a romanticised view of totalitarianism with a red hue.Perhaps it is because, as someone once said, we are divided by a common language.
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