Russian Foreign Policy

Leper said:
A little OTT Purple - let's keep the discussion on an even keel, I don't think anybody is happy to let anybody die. You might feel like amending your post. For the record we have several Ukranian members and others from the rest of eastern europe also.
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But you're happy for us to do nothing. Indeed you see it as a virtue. I genuinely can't get my head around that.

I can see why we didn't join NATO in 1948 as partition was a fresh and open wound but we accepted international borders when we joined the EU and we live under the blanket of safety that NATO provide. If anyone was in doubt of that latter point the events of the last few weeks should have clarified things for them.
 
Leper said:
We don't have decent equipment for our Irish army and have treated Irish Army personnel with disdain and I'm sure the Ukraine army can get along without Irish military aid.
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We have excellent equipment (anti-armour and anti-aircraft), Javelin, AT4-SRAAW, RBS 70's, we just don't have a lot of it.

Leper said:
Furthermore, I don't expect anybody to come to our aid even if we were invaded.
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Just not credible and a farcical position.

Leper said:
I am involved with the local hurling club at under age level. It was frightening this week to hear young Irish girls and boys talking about the threat of another war in europe. Our schools have many eastern european students and this fear will spread.
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‘A gamble on peace’ – Dorcha Lee on TK Whitaker and defence spending​


Asked why we were underfunding defence in comparison to other EEC member states, he gave an honest and direct reply. This was government policy. The current priority was to modernise agriculture, develop industry and invest in education. He said “on defence we are like an uninsured, untaxed motorist, skimping on car maintenance. So long as we don’t have an accident or are not stopped by the Guards, we will get away with it. As the years go by, all that money that would have been spent on defence would be available to invest in infrastructure, social services and creating employment. It is a gamble, if you like, on peace.”

In the face of all the evidence, wait until those kids learn that Ireland are doubling down.
 
Letter in today's IT sums it up:

Sir, – We are not neutral. We are defenceless. – Yours, etc,

M JOHN KENNEDY,

Ranelagh,

Dublin 6.
 
Firefly said:
Yeah, was thinking the same thing on Saturday evening & took out a New York Times subscription.
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We are living through the end of the post Second World War consensus. At the end of the War there were assumptions made that we had learned the lessons of history and that freedom and democracy would inevitably triumph over oppression and authoritarianism. Those assumptions have proven to be incorrect.
A new world order immerging in which prosperity and freedom do not go hand in hand and we are willing to sacrifice much of our freedom for material comfort. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
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People queuing for cash in Moscow yesterday. I'm not sure if previous Russian dicators had a middle-class to worry about....
 
cremeegg said:
You and your sons and daughters are welcome to travel to Ukraine to fight for what you believe in. I will admire you for it.

I have no intention of giving my life for Ukraine and I would discourage my children from doing so.

Now when are you off, or it is just talk.
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An unworthy post, I regret to say, and not in line with the normal high standard of posting you exemplify around here.

The Ukrainian people aren't asking us to send our sons and daughters to fight for them. They have shown an absolutely marvellous determination to do their own fighting for their own country. And they're making a commendably good job of doing so. Their "ask" from the West is merely that they be given a bit of help in the form of weaponry and munitions. Is that really too much to expect?
 
We should also remember that Russia has already attacked us. They Beta-tested one of their Cyber Weapons on us last year... Or is anyone naive enough to think that that sort of thing happens without the support and involvement of the Kremlin?
 
I was speaking to some of my Polish team today, based both here and back home. Very scary and they are getting far more information from home as to what is really happening on the ground. What is clear is that given the number of Ukrainians living in Poland (a bit like the Irish in London) is that Poland is also going to need a lot of support to help deal with the numbers of refugees, as will a few other bordering nations
 
Peanuts20 said:
I was speaking to some of my Polish team today, based both here and back home. Very scary and they are getting far more information from home as to what is really happening on the ground. What is clear is that given the number of Ukrainians living in Poland (a bit like the Irish in London) is that Poland is also going to need a lot of support to help deal with the numbers of refugees, as will a few other bordering nations
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That's a really good point. If ever there was a time to push the boat out and help the people of Ukraine, and the EU frontline states, this is it. Ukraine will need massive reconstruction for a start, plus formal support for continued development of its democratic institutions. And of course, it'll need to build up its military capabilities to deter further invasions.

We should also set up visa free access for Ukrainian nationals, with a pathway to EU single market, customs union, and ultimately, full EU membership. It is massively in our self interest to have a prosperous, democratic and friendly Ukraine.
 
Baby boomer said:
An unworthy post, I regret to say, and not in line with the normal high standard of posting you exemplify around here.

The Ukrainian people aren't asking us to send our sons and daughters to fight for them. They have shown an absolutely marvellous determination to do their own fighting for their own country. And they're making a commendably good job of doing so. Their "ask" from the West is merely that they be given a bit of help in the form of weaponry and munitions. Is that really too much to expect?
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I am sorry you think so, but it reflects how I feel.

My comments are not directed toward Ukraine but to that part of Irish society which would have us join NATO.

Unless you are happy to see Irish soldiers trooping off to fight on the orders of Donald Trump advocating joining NATO is just a knee jerk reaction.

I like Ukraine, I lived and worked in Kharkiv and Lyviv in the 1990s, I like the Ukrainian people. However I am not willing to fight to put my life on the line for them. If @Purple is willing to do that, he is free to do so and I would admire him from the sidelines. However his proposals would deprive future Irish generations of the CHOICE. That I cannot accept.

For Ireland to join NATO is to create a future where Irishmen and perhaps women could be conscripted to fight NATO’s future wars. Those will be fought on the decisions of US presidents and UK prime ministers.

Anyone advocating joining NATO is writing a blank cheque in Irish lives cashable by, who knows, for what purpose, who knows.

If those people feel so strongly about that why are they not joining this war.
 
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cremeegg said:
I am sorry you think so, but it reflects how I feel.

My comments are not directed toward Ukraine but to that part of Irish society which would have us join NATO.

Unless you are happy to see Irish soldiers trooping off to fight on the orders of Donald Trump advocating joining NATO is just a knee jerk reaction.

I like Ukraine, I lived and worked in Kharkiv and Lyviv in the 1990s, I like the Ukrainian people. However I am not willing to fight to put my life on the line for them. If @Purple is willing to do that, he is free to do so and I would admire him from the sidelines. However his proposals would deprive future Irish generations of the CHOICE. That I cannot accept.

For Ireland to join NATO is to create a future where Irishmen and perhaps women could be conscripted to fight NATO’s future wars. Those will be fought on the decisions of US presidents and UK prime ministers.

Anyone advocating joining NATO is writing a blank cheque in Irish lives cashable by, who knows, for what purpose, who knows.

If those people feel so strongly about that why are they not joining this war.
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On one level i'm glad to see a post like this, its rambling, incoherent, full of misconceptions and insulting to those with opposing views. From Trump to conscription to actually fighting in Ukraine, its off the wall. It reveals the fallacy of our current faux-neutrality, and the absence of a logical rationale to underpin the position.

Interesting you've a previous connection to Ukraine. I note that the first images of the cluster bombing of Kharkiv are emerging this afternoon, a likely 'crime against humanity'. I think its fair to say nobody is neutral in their views about that.
 
cremeegg said:
I am sorry you think so, but it reflects how I feel.

My comments are not directed toward Ukraine but to that part of Irish society which would have us join NATO.

Unless you are happy to see Irish soldiers trooping off to fight on the orders of Donald Trump advocating joining NATO is just a knee jerk reaction.

I like Ukraine, I lived and worked in Kharkiv and Lyviv in the 1990s, I like the Ukrainian people. However I am not willing to fight to put my life on the line for them. If @Purple is willing to do that, he is free to do so and I would admire him from the sidelines. However his proposals would deprive future Irish generations of the CHOICE. That I cannot accept.
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Nobody is proposing that Irish armed forces be deployed in Ukraine. Nobody.
cremeegg said:
For Ireland to join NATO is to create a future where Irishmen and perhaps women could be conscripted to fight NATO’s future wars. Those will be fought on the decisions of US presidents and UK prime ministers.

Anyone advocating joining NATO is writing a blank cheque in Irish lives cashable by, who knows, for what purpose, who knows.
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At the moment Putin and Xi Jinping have more say over us deploying our Army than our Parliament. I have a problem with that.
NATO membership does not require conscription. Joining a NATO action is not obligatory unless a NATO member is attacked. That has never happened. If it does happen then we're involved one way or the other.
 
Even the Swiss, the financiers of evil in the world, have now frozen Russian assets.
 
Purple said:
Joining a NATO action is not obligatory unless a NATO member is attacked. That has never happened. If it does happen then we're involved one way or the other.
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Article 5 of the NATO treaty requires all member states to come to the aid of any member which has been attacked. It has been invoked once after the 9/11 bombings of the twin towers.

Were Estonia to be attacked by Russia, they would have a clear right to invoke Art 5. Member states would have a duty under the NATO treaty to come to Estonia's aid.

I would not like to see Ireland militarily involved in such a conflict.
 
I think I'd rather Ireland in a European Defence Force instead of NATO. There are some cases where we shouldn't be neutral. I'd have no problem being neutral watching two drunken louts having a go at each other. But would you stand by while a child or vulnerable person was attacked and just turn the other way because you're 'neutral'

Ukraine doesn't need the little bit of military assistance we could give them. So we should make the extra effort on the humanitarian side
 
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