Thanks for the personal remarks, but if you are actually interested in ‘a logical rational to underpin’ Irish neutrality feel free to respond to my effort at post #167.
Russian Foreign Policy
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I understand your view about NATO Article 5. It's fair and likely shared by a large number of Irish people. It's a key component of the organisation and all members are bound by it. It's not surprising that poeple would be fearful about it. However, as an argument you have invented a story about Trump and conscription that is very confused and unclear? It is also a total side show to what is actually happening today and absolutely nothing to with Irish neutrality. NATO is a totally different conversation.
Apart from your very kind comments about Daly/Wallace (!), I have tried to understand your key arguments, in bold. The sum of which amounts to "It's not my job...". Others who advocate for our version of neutrality at least argue that it materially improves our humanitarian contribution, our diplomacy, our soft power, it opens doors for Ireland? Nothing to with values, nothing to do with advancing our interests abroad, nothing to do with pacifism? As regards our history, I don't think there was ever a stage of our history where trouble didn't come to the island!
Apart from your very kind comments about Daly/Wallace (!), I have tried to understand your key arguments, in bold. The sum of which amounts to "It's not my job...". Others who advocate for our version of neutrality at least argue that it materially improves our humanitarian contribution, our diplomacy, our soft power, it opens doors for Ireland? Nothing to with values, nothing to do with advancing our interests abroad, nothing to do with pacifism? As regards our history, I don't think there was ever a stage of our history where trouble didn't come to the island!
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Were not sending our own stocks exactly, EU MS who wish to purchase kit are doing so. Why shouldn't we do both?
The EU resolution to condemn the actions of Russia didn't need Ming's vote given the overwhelming majority expressed their view in favour but it still would have been nice if he had been on the right side of history.
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Expert and sobering assessment of the military situation so far.
Russia taking time to regroup and reorganise. Next wave will be in numbers and not so easily picked off:
Russia taking time to regroup and reorganise. Next wave will be in numbers and not so easily picked off:
I think what we have done is consistent with our in EU as a neutral position.
Finland have one foot in the door with NATO. Sweden have a significant military. We do not.
You can argue that position needs to change but unless we are going to beef up our military and / or join a European or NATO military pact then I think we should be staying in the box we put ourselves in but not holding back rest of EU.
I understand the sentiment. I understand the reservations but there's no actual policy. It's a self-licking lollipop used to justify whatever you're having yourself.
Decades and centuries of diplomatic and military tradition have been torn up in the past 48 hours, in multiple countries in Europe such is the revulsion at what is happening. We can't even produce a sheet of paper that explains to a non-Irish person, what exactly the position is.
That fair. Those countries are not neutral but do declare themselves neutral, like us.
There's a totally valid argument there that our vulnerabilities could be exploited should we put our head above the parapet. It's a risk, we could pay for it. I would argue that, we already are.
Its a fallacy to think that we have some kind of special immunity from Russian aggression. We have been 100% complicit in crippling the Russian economy, destroying their currency and bankrupting one bank so far, possibly their state airline. Their central bank is not looking good, sovereign immunity has been torn up. Industry will be crippled, there will be mass unemployment in the coming months, serious economic pain on a largely innocent population. The only people who think we're neutral is us. We're not neutral. It's a farce, is it not? And if not, why not?
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Tom Clonan with a shorter version, but broadly similar in the grim assessment of what is to come:
Tom Clonan: Putin is waging a 1942 war in 2022, causing untold suffering and destruction
The security expert says the Russian leader has employed similar tactics in Grozny in Chechnya.
www.thejournal.ie
We are unaligned. We are not neutral.
We are also the base for a very large number of leased commercial aircraft that we are now taking back from Russia under EU agreement. I suppose we couldn't oppose that without it impacting our commercial interests.
I'm not in favour of Irish Troops going to Ukraine, obviously as that would be a stupid idea since we've nothing to contribute and we'd need someone to bring them there, taking up spaces for real soldiers.
I'm not particularly gone on joining NATO, but I am in favour of an EU army with us as a contributing member.
What we should be doing now is directly contributing to the purchase of arms for Ukraine. It would be a statement that we are part of the community of free democratic States and we are willing to help defend the values that underpin our way of life. So far we've not done that.
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Ceist Beag
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A question to those more familiar with the history of wars. Although nobody is directly getting involved in the war in terms of bodies/armies, there has been, what appears to me at least, a very quick and very united response to this either through sanctions, support or breaking up any relationships with Russian companies. Governments are coming together very quickly to impose multiple rounds of sanctions and offering support and financial aid. Companies are terminating agreements with Russian companies. Sporting organisations are suspending Russian teams. Hell even the Swiss banks are freezing assets which seems unheard of! All of this seems like a good thing btw, am just curious about the nature of it.
So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
So my question is, is this a post pandemic world reaction? Or is it a result of the influence of social media? Or is it simply the nature of this particular war that is causing this? Is it very different this time around?
I think it's that in a globalised world the actions of governments, companies and banks are more obvious. The Swiss would be up to their usual trick of funding terrorism, oppression and murder all over the world if it wasn't for the changes that were force upon them by America after 9/11. Banks and companies are frightened of being on the wrong side of the USA or the EU so in short yes, it's as you said above.
The fact that Ukraine is in Europe and the people there are white is also a factor.
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Some good point there Ceist Beag. Neutrality (let's not get involved in words like unaligned) is sacred. The Swiss were always a cool and steady race of people looking calculated at everything especially inward and what is good for Switzerland. I see nothing wrong with that. But, even on this ultra conservative membership forum we have people calling for Ireland to relinquish its neutrality. Neutrality is neutrality not half neutrality half belligerence.
Even Winston Churchill scoffed at Ireland's neutrality at the end of WW2 and received a stinging response from E de Valera. While I have the greatest sympathy of people from Ukraine, the bottom line is that they are not an EU country. There were/are wars in other non EU countries ongoing for years and nobody is calling for any kind of Irish involvement. The further away from war and destruction we keep the better. Let's look after ourselves more for a change and let others learn from our neutrality.
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Of course. I am using the word neutral in the Irish sense of the word!
Neither are credible though.
By purchasing arms, do you think that changes the 'unaligned' status?
I think offering visa free travel is a meaningful action on our part, it makes it vastly less painful for people than enforcing the asylum process.
I'm not sure of your substantive point here given the derogatory tone.
In fact, we have significant capabilities that could be useful in this conflict. I'm presuming its this phase of the conflict that you wouldn't dispatch troops to i.e. direct hostilities. However, the situation will change. There will be a humanitarian crisis that will emerge. This may require action in Ukraine while hostilities are ongoing for example. There will be medical, engineering and logistical knowledge and know-how required. There is a chance we will see chemical and radiological impacts. They will need people who can operate in that environment. If its widespread (which is not unimaginable) there will be a need for maximum contribution. We have trained people and equipment. We don't have alot of it/them but we have them. But its a mistake to conflate a lack of resources with a lack of professionalism.
In terms of getting there, unlike other conflicts, this time we can drive there!
In another recent incident where we were caught with our pants down (militarily speaking), we tried to evacuate some of our citizens from Kabul in a rapidly deteriorating situation. It was the Ukrainians who offered the Irish seats on their transport.
Of course everyone has their view and reasons which is fine. We're so obsessed with NATO that we're failing to see the wood for the trees. In this situation today for example, NATO has strategically 'marked' Putin. It has ensured that Putin's nuclear threats are, more than likely, to remain just that. It has put a 'back stop' in place to ensure his ambitions are contained (lucky for Ireland, may not be lucky for neutral Moldova).
The key point for Ireland is that warfare has moved on. It is now hybrid warfare which combines all facets of economic, diplomatic, information, military and political actions. These actions take place in all domains land, sea, air and cyber. There is a spectrum of conflict that has a significant grey zone where actions cannot be directly attributed as e.g. as a hostile action by a State actor, but is in fact a
Its naïve to think that state sponsored hacking of Ukraine in the last number of years, was anything other than preparation for this moment. The question for Ireland is, why was the HSE targeted? We might find out thanks to NATO countries are who are now targeting the conti group at the moment.
We are now being left behind in the defence and security conversation in Europe. Those discussions are now happening in the EU not in NATO.
In terms of taking collective action (like now), there is no distinction between taking an economic action and a military action which are designed to achieve as strategic outcome, especially when in a direct conflict. The actions of the EU have superseded NATO. The actions of a political/economic bloc have pushed the military alliance to the background.
And as we are arguing about putting our names on bombs and bullets but at the same time contributing to the economic devastation of Russia, we are losing credibility by the day.
This is unprecedented. This is a seminal moment. Last Friday Russia was a functional country. On Monday it was North Korea.
Sophrosyne
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The difference is the very real threat of nuclear war.
I think that this time round, those close to the current Russian dictator are all incredibly wealthy & powerful. By severely limiting them in these ways, surely the West are aiming for discontent. Who knows, someone might even knock off Vlads ... maybe these fine fellas could help
Duke of Marmalade
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I see The Tool is feigning being anti Russian in today's IT. But we will never forget his smart ass comment that NATO vs Putin was not a binary.
As for our 4 leftie MEPs who rejected the anti Russian motion in December resulting in Irish MEPs being 46% in support versus the norm of 82% in support.
This is not because our lefties are more leftie than France's. It is a reflection of a deep anti American streak in sections of our body politic, though I suppose the French are not particular Yankee lovers either.
This is a strange situation given that Ireland is second only to Germany in European countries claiming US ancestry and third only to Mexico overall.
Perhaps it is because, as someone once said, we are divided by a common language.
As for our 4 leftie MEPs who rejected the anti Russian motion in December resulting in Irish MEPs being 46% in support versus the norm of 82% in support.
This is not because our lefties are more leftie than France's. It is a reflection of a deep anti American streak in sections of our body politic, though I suppose the French are not particular Yankee lovers either.
This is a strange situation given that Ireland is second only to Germany in European countries claiming US ancestry and third only to Mexico overall.
Perhaps it is because, as someone once said, we are divided by a common language.
No. Unaligned meant that we weren't in NATO or the Warsaw Pact (and by it's original definition that made is a 3rd world country).
We have well trained professional soldiers but we don't have a real army so in that context they aren't real soldiers.
Yes, we have very limited capabilities which may be useful after the conflict but in the context of what an Army is for (fighting) we have nothing to offer.
Will we round up the Iodine Tablets? I'm not sure where mine are.
The tiny resources we have to offer would be more than cancelled out by the resources or other armies we'd take up getting us there and folding us into a command structure we have zero experience of.
I agree.
An important point. I mentioned above that we've already been attacked by Russia. They Beta-tested their Cyber weapons on us last year. Expect more in the coming months.
Yep, which is why we need to sit at the table and be part of the conversation.
Exactly. We are applying a policy from 1948 to the world of 2022.
Discontent from some of Vlad's posse?
Oleg Deripaska, a sanctioned metals tycoon close to the Kremlin, wrote on social media that he wanted to know “who’s really going to pay for this whole party.”
Vyacheslav Markhayev, a lawmaker from Siberia, declared that the Kremlin “hid plans to start a full-scale war against our closest neighbor.”
“Countries should spend money on treating people, on research to defeat cancer, and not on war,” Oleg Tinkov, the billionaire founder of one of Russia’s biggest consumer banks, wrote on Instagram.
www.nytimes.com
Oleg Deripaska, a sanctioned metals tycoon close to the Kremlin, wrote on social media that he wanted to know “who’s really going to pay for this whole party.”
Vyacheslav Markhayev, a lawmaker from Siberia, declared that the Kremlin “hid plans to start a full-scale war against our closest neighbor.”
“Countries should spend money on treating people, on research to defeat cancer, and not on war,” Oleg Tinkov, the billionaire founder of one of Russia’s biggest consumer banks, wrote on Instagram.
As Sanctions Batter Economy, Russians Face the Anxieties of a Costly War (Published 2022)
The ruble plunged, the stock market was shuttered and foreign investors shed holdings in Russian companies, deepening the concern among citizens who had become accustomed to the perks of globalization.
Given the traditional antisemitism of the left here maybe it's because the President of Ukraine is Jewish.
I think it's more to do with childish anti-Americanism and a romanticised view of totalitarianism with a red hue.