Rip Off Republic - Episode #2 - review

There's a place in Temple Bar, I think it's called the Quay Bar, there's a resturant called the Quay Kitchen (I think). I enjoyed that. Not Cheap, but not expensive by Dublin standards.

Also Milano's (I think) in Terenure was OK.
Sayers in Terenure, a little expensive but I really like the food.

Sanam (Indian) in Bray was a regular (once a month at least, sometimes more). But it just got too expensive. Occasionally go there for very special occasions. Once a year maybe less. Usually empty, but they must be surviving somehow.

It gets me sometimes that I'm surprised that the meal ONLY costs €50 (Without Wine, starters, tea, coffee, dessert etc.). I think if you eat out a lot in Dublin your sense of what constitutes value for money get's shifted. That's why trips abroad are such a jarring experience.

Incidently if you want good value in a Dublin resturant pick one that provides take out. You can get seriously good value, and is it really worth €20 to have someone clear the table and do the washing up?

-Rd
 
Fair play daltonr, agree with ye 100%. As for RainyDay - what kind of argument is it to say that if we think we're being ripped off by taxis/shops/dentists that we should open run our own taxi/shop/dentist business? Thats just a daft statement. Are we not allowed to complain about prices any more? So if I complain that going to the dentist costs too much in this country you suggest I should train to become a dentist myself? Sheesh!
 
you are just plain wrong. the cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life.
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[post=104498]yesterday[/post]


The quality of life is better now for most people. Perhaps for all people, I don't know of any group for whom life has gotten worse
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[post=104833]today[/post]

DaltonR

Have you changed your opinion on this or am I misrepresenting what you said?



Marion
 
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What about BYO restaurants???

These are "bring your own" wine. Are v popular in Australia, and for the consumer you avoid the rip-off of the wine prices. Many dont even charge corkage, and the few that do might charge $4, so its still more or less half price wine. Very impressed with these. Now, if it really is a 3% margin on food in Ireland then I suppose there wont be too many going for it - or is there a Ryanair model for a restaurant??, high volume byo, pie,mash & "liquer" joints maybe??? (Cockney dish, the "liquer", however its spelt, is some type of green parsley sauce type stuff)
 
RD
The reason that I brought up about the 80's was your coment about
the cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life
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The operative word is Increase against when, I therefore did a comparison.This was your definition of Rip off Ireland, it was only after my post that you changed it to
Higher Cost of Living with lower quality of life than other comparible countries.
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You later say
Bin the FF Green tinted glasses and answer the actual points raised, stop making up arguments about the 80's that you feel you can win. Oldest politicians trick in the book is answering a question you weren't asked. Are you planning a run for office?
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See above also you have decided to ignore the following where I posted re the UK:


Also re USA

Legend You stated
you have to pay nearly 30 euro a month to Sky for the privelge.
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How many channells do you get for this?? What is the price per channel?? Corus not in your area, get a better arial if you cant get signal and dont want to pay.

Do TD's have to pay for drink there
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YES

Posted by shnaek
Or germany's unemployment levels, or France's strikes belive me neither country is perfect, far from it watching news the other day and the abuse the govt of both contries geting from the people was serious, economy's going down the tubes.

Lads, everything is not perfect in Ireland, not even close, but that is the way of the world, I would bet that if you asked people in any country in the world would say the same thing.we all strive for the best and this is a good thing.However we have come a long long way over a relativly short period of time from the basket case economy that we had to one of the most sucessful economies in the world.
We can give out about the roads, but then we can compaire what the were like, We can think of the fact that a few short years ago we would say that yiou would know when you cross the boarder with NI by the state of the roads, however cross the same boarder at the same point and you could say the same but for exactly the opposite reason they are far better here. You could talk to people from NI has I have in the past few weeks and they tell you that they wished they could move "down South" for the standard of living, services etc.
Its time to stop the whinging.
 
DaltonR
Have you changed your opinion on this or am I misrepresenting what you said?
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I'm happy to clear this up for you Marion.

The cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life.

Of course Ireland is a better place now than in the 80's It would be hard to have avoided improving. I believe we went forward dramatically in the 90's. Which accounts for why the country is a better place today than in the 80's I think we have actually gone backwards slightly over the past 4 years or so.

But the Cost of Living has since the mid 90's gotten to get further and further out of sync with the Quality of Life. I have no way of proving this but I think quality of life on average has dropped over the past 5 years. That's just an observation and based on talking to people.

My problem is with the current government and it's over emphasis on economy and underemphasis on society. During the 90's quality of life increased, but the fruits of the FF approach are now apparent. To bastardise a cliche, the spent the Boom on Fish instead of teaching us to fish.

If I thought for one second that the current government were going in the right direction then I'd accept that Ireland came from a very low base and we need to be patient in waiting for it to catch up with it's neighbours.

But since I believe the current government is going in the WRONG direction and lying as it goes I think I'm justified in calling attention to this.

Jem. At no point have I stated that any other country is perfect. I just said that many other countries were Better overall when Cost of Living is compared to quality of life. We all know why this is it's not news. You are right Ireland was a basket case thanks in big part to FF buying the 1977 election.

It would have taken geniuses to create infrastructure like Germany's and a Health Service like Frances in the space of 10 to 15 years even with the Boom. I don't expect that.

But I do expect us to keep moving in the right direction. And we're not.

Life might be grand if you're well paid, you have your house, your pension, your health insurance. If you don't have kids or they are old enough to look after themself or you have family nearby to do cheap childcare. Your Net worth shot up alongside the housing boom.

I'm sure that if that's you then Ireland must seem like a great place. But that isn't life for a big big chunk of the population.

-Rd
 
So you agree that there are no objective and measurable criteria that can be used to assess this forward and backward movement and that this analysis is all based a hunch or gut feeling on your part?

But since I believe the current government is going in the WRONG direction and lying as it goes I think I'm justified in calling attention to this.
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What party or political movement do you think offers the best promise for correction of the wrongs that you perceive (a perfect solution is not necessary - just progress on the issues that you feel need to be addressed)? If none, what do you think that you and others can and should do to address these issues? I'm sure that you can suggest some practical and effective solutions.
 
daltonr said:
I'm happy to clear this up for you Marion.

The cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life.
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Thats not what you said you said
The quality of life is better now for most people. Perhaps for all people, I don't know of any group for whom life has gotten worse
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First of all if the economy isn't right nothing else can be done.
Quality of life as you now admit is un quantifiable, by its very nature vary's from person to person. And depends on what markers you use. I agree that siting in traffic jams is not quality of life. But the flip side of this is there are more cars on the road because of QUALITY OF LIFE, likewise the luas and dart has been put on place( dart drivers strike???) there are more private bus operators going up and down to Dublin and around Dublin to a limited degree , teh Unions are fighting tooth and nail against more Comp. in this area, there are more taxise and hackneys available all over the country. The road network has improved dramatically over the past few years and is in the process of geting better. There are many many examples of the improvements.Its not perfect we are not there the whole way but we are geting there.



daltonr said:
But since I believe the current government is going in the WRONG direction and lying as it goes I think I'm justified in calling attention to this.
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Yes but surly it gets a bit tireing reading it the whole time. I would also assume that you will be standing for election the next time there is one with a full range of policies that can be disected.


daltonr said:
Jem. At no point have I stated that any other country is perfect. I just said that many other countries were Better overall when Cost of Living is compared to quality of life. .
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You have ignored again my earlier examples.


We all know why this is it's not news.
daltonr said:
You are right Ireland was a basket case thanks in big part to FF buying the 1977 election. .
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If you want a seperate tread on the reason for our basket case economy of the 80's set up a seperate tread and I will argue this. I would point out however it was the FG/LAB govt that went in on a financial rectitude pladform and tribled the bnat debt in 4 years. I will also argue, that may economists argue that the idea behind the of the 1977 govt would have worked in taking the country out of recession had the Oil crises not happened . I am not saying that I would agree with everything that was done just point out that there was more to out basket case economy than the 77-81 govt.



I would argue that we are. The infrastructure is improving dramatically. I again point out about the health service in UK. You might quote the french health service would you pay the taxes they do, i doubt it, i wouldn't. would you put up with all the strikes etc I doubt it.


Actually the home ownership in Ireland is far higher than the vast majority if EU countries. I do have kids aged 7&9 I remember very well how tight we were when we got married 12 years ago, we had carpets but couldnt afford to get in someone to put them down for quite a while. Look at the average size of house being built now as opposed to even then if everything was so bad the average private new house built wouldn't have almost doubled in 12 years.The vast majority of the population have never had it so good. I would say to people enjoy it it mightn't always be as good as now. We have a great little country. We have come a massive distance particularly for a country that only exists for a mear 83 years. It might sound a long time, it isn't if you compare it to UK,Germany,France, etc also remember Germany& France was largly rebuilt with the Marchell plan etcwe never got such relative investment
 
Personally I believe that many people are worse off now than they have ever been. The "Celtic Tiger" has helped rich people get richer, but it has also seen the less well off people in this country get proportionately poorer. Socially, people are now poorer in terms of free time - we work longer hours and spend less time with our families. Yes, we get paid more, but now everything costs more and we have less time to enjoy the fruits of our labour.
 
Once again - do you have anything other than anecdotal or hunch based evidence to back up these assertions? Some objective, measurable and verifiable figures would fit the bill nicely for example.
 
Noor77 said:
Personally I believe ...
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Clubman, my comment wasn't meant as statement of fact or a sweeping generalisation - you will note I began by asserting that it is only a personal view.
 
The problem seems to me to be that many of the people asserting that things are a rip-off or that things are worse than they were or should be are doing so on the basis of largely anecdotal evidence or hunches. And I believe that in order to discuss anything in a meaningful and constructive way it is extremely important to look at the evidence and only then draw conclusions. Just saying that something is so doesn't necessarily make it so.
 
So you agree that there are no objective and measurable criteria that can be used to assess this forward and backward movement
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There are some quantifiable measures. I don't have all the figures at my finger tips and I won't pretent to. I'm happy to go with the belief that Living in the country is more likely to give an accurate assesment of quality of life than any mathematical model.

But I do KNOW the following.

The average commute to work has gotten longer and continues to. I do know that people are now living in Carlow, Meath, Longford, and commuting because they can't afford to live in Dublin. (Although I think there's a bit of false economy there).

I know that I'm paying €40 a year for the right to own a Credit Card and I know that €40 means much more to someone who is poor than someone who is rich.

I know that the VAST majority of new builds in Dublin are Appartments not houses and are not exactly family friendly.

I know that the cost of housing is being artifically inflated by giving the one group in society who don't need more houses tax incentives to buy them.

I know that you're better off on social welfare than in low paid employment.

I could go one, but apparently you're all tired of hearing what's bad.


Jem.

Yes but surly it gets a bit tireing reading it the whole time.
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We have to listen to Bertie et al constantly telling us about our low tax economy. We even have to pay for the PR machine that they use to tell us. I didn't realise there was a quota on dissent.

I would also assume that you will be standing for election the next time there is one with a full range of policies that can be disected.
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No I certainly won't. To effect real change I'd need to rejoin a political party, if elected I'd be required to lie, evade questions, etc. etc. I wouldn't be able to be a politician.

I'll campaign against the current government. I'll hope for the best with the next lot but expect the worst. My chosed form of ACTION is to keep beating this drum and hope I convert a few others. Things are moving in the right direction. I'm certainly finding a lot more support for the points I make than when I started making them 2-3 years ago.

For what it's worth I'll also campaign for some politicians that I like including one in FF.

I'm sorry if my opinions don't fit with yours. If I was saying that everything was great you'd never get tired of hearing it. As long as AAM discusses consumer issues, and Rip-Off Ireland then this opinion will be raised. Anyone including you who feels they've heard enough about Rip-Offs is free to ignore such threads.

You have ignored again my earlier examples.
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No I haven't. Of course there are problems in the UK, just as there are somethings good in Ireland. You seem to think that by finding some problem in some other country my whole argument about Ireland should fall appart.

It's like Rainyday throwing out the risk of his child getting shot in school as a reason to prefer Ireland over USA. If a financial institution used such a dodgy abuse of statistics we'd be down on them like a ton of bricks.

-Rd
 
From the Irish CWC (Community Workers Co-operative) submission to the EU, in relation to the EU Draft Constitution, April 13th 2005.

The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns poverty, exclusion and social justice. It is worth noting that Eurobarometer polls consistently put social exclusion, unemployment and poverty at the top of the list. The EU currently has 68 million people living in poverty.



Unfortunately, Ireland consistently features as the most unequal society in the EU. We currently share with Slovakia the dubious distinction of having the greatest percentage of people at risk of poverty in the EU (21%).
 
daltonr said:
There are some quantifiable measures. I don't have all the figures at my finger tips and I won't pretent to.

But I do KNOW the following.

...
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Whenever you do locate the sources for the assertions that you posted above then it would be great if you could post them here so that we can start basing the discussion on some hard facts.

I'm happy to go with the belief that Living in the country is more likely to give an accurate assesment of quality of life than any mathematical model.
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The problem is that, as Cognitive Behaviour Therapy suggests, our perception of what is going on is not necessary always accurate so it's always useful to sanity check our beliefs against objective and measurable data in order to avoid coming to fallacious conclusions and acting inappropriately on them.

I could go one, but apparently you're all tired of hearing what's bad.
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If it's bad it's bad and all we can do is look for solutions to the problems. All I'm asking for is hard evidence that it's bad.
 
One could do worse than listen to "Celtic Tiger" by that great bard of our times one Mr. Damian Dempsey Esquire. When not drinking cheap english cider, and smoking hashish from North Affffriccaaaahhhhhha he pens lines like:

But the Celtic Tiger does to things, it makes you rich or it eats you up for supper.
This isnt any age for a low income wage, ask anyone who's locked in a cage.
The cost of rundown house is absurd.
A couple with kids cant afford a place to live, even if they have a good job.

Where we gonna live, what we gonna do, we'll have to move in with the woman in the shoe.

strong words, softly spoken, or maybe simple words, soulfully warbled !!
 
ClubMan said:
All I'm asking for is hard evidence that it's bad.
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I have given you some re: Ireland's poverty status within the EU. If you would like further confirmation of this you can check out the Eurobarometer findings on the EU's official site. Or alternatively you can ask the person you see sleeping rough on your way home or the person that does the cleaning in your office / work building etc.....
 
Noor77 said:
I have given you some re: Ireland's poverty status within the EU.
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Can you point me to that link/post again as I can't seem to locate it.

Or alternatively you can ask the person you see sleeping rough on your way home
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I have never seen anybody sleeping rough on route home.

or the person that does the cleaning in your office / work building etc.....
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I have chatted to the cleaners in here and in my previous job many few times and they never mentioned anything about rip-offs or things that are terrible about this country/economy.
 
Rd.
I already mentioned the traffic jams and the improvements therein. I would point out that if peoples This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language pocketc weren't so good there wouldnt be as many cars on the road therefore less trafic.

I know that I'm paying €40 a year for the right to own a Credit Card and I know that €40 means much more to someone who is poor than someone who is rich.
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And guess what most of the "poor" don't have one and never had one. You don't have to have one, its handy, you might like one but you make a choice whether or not you get one. If you want one you pay €40 live with it.

I know that the VAST majority of new builds in Dublin are Appartments not houses and are not exactly family friendly
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Guess what the vast majority of cities are exactlty the same if not more so.


I know that the cost of housing is being artifically inflated by giving the one group in society who don't need more houses tax incentives to buy them.
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That is the same old red herring re business expenses relief.You stated earlier that you have your own business. How would feel if you were not allowed to claim expenses that you had to have to run your business against your tax. It is exactly the same with the interest relief. Are you saying that if joe bloggs builds a factory and has to borrow some of the money to do so he shouldn't be allowed set the interest relief against his profits?????

I know that you're better off on social welfare than in low paid employment.
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in a minority of cases this could be true. what do you want to do- cut social welfare payments or increase the min wage, which will - increase prices chicken and egg. The fact is that there is loads of work out there. Unemployment rates have come down and down. It is impossible for everyone to have everything but this country has improved dramatically. we are heading in the right direction we have never had it so good.

You brought up "other countries" You brought up the health service. i just showed the fact that everything is not always greener... That while we might complain about our health service it is not as bad as the impression is. They were just 2 simple examples and you chose to ignore them.

Noor
how much of this 21% is self inflected. with holidays abroad, cars, top of the range this and that on credit??
 
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