Rip Off Republic - Episode #2 - review

[daltonr]

if people are going to deflect from the lack of objective evidence supporting their assertions

Do you really need evidence to support the assertion that peoples daily commute in Dublin is growing, and that people are increasingly finding they have to move out of Dublin and commute in to work from Carlow, Meath, Longford, etc.

Are the Ads in the newspapers billing houses in Carlow and Mullingar as within commuting distance to Dublin a Myth?

OK. Here are some statistics.

Between 1991 and 1997 the amount of Cars in Co Dublin increased 34% Commuting Times increased by up to 134% from suburbs like Lucan.
[broken link removed]

Quality of Life seems to be static here for the past 3 years. Irelands score on the Mercer Quality of Life Index has not moved from 2003 to 2005. Our rank has climbed one place because other countries have moved around us.
There are 5 German cities ranked higher than Ireland. This should be of interest to Brendan.
http://www.mercerhr.com/pressrelease/details.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1173105

I don't buy into these rankings to be honest, but if you want to put figures on these things then here they are. One reason I'd be dubious about attaching a single score to Quality of Life is that it has too many facets of different importance to different people.

E.g. Singapore is 1.5 Points lower than Dublin, Ranking it at 34 compared with Dublins 22. I presume Singapore's score is dramatically reduced by issues surrounding freedom of speach, etc.

But Quality of Life and general contentment and pride among the locals as far as I could make out in Singapore was dramatically better than in pretty much any CITY I've ever visited. It struck me that if the only thing you have to complain about is that you can't complain loudly, then you really have very little to complain about.

Singapore fascinates me and I'm only half way through a book about it so I'm not going to claim it's Utopia. But it's the most impressed I've ever been by a city on a first impression.

As for the economist ranking us top of the world league. I'm skeptical at best about the Economist after their bungling of Irelands Alcohol problem. But their survey is nicely dealt with here:

"This may be the last survey to include evidence of both old and new in a single graph. For now we move into a different grade, to be judged among our peers and by their standards, a modern state distinguished only by its intangible and increasingly elusive "crack". "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1354677,00.html



-Rd

 

[ClubMan]

As for the economist ranking us top of the world league. I'm skeptical at best about the Economist after their bungling of Irelands Alcohol problem. But their survey is nicely dealt with here:

"This may be the last survey to include evidence of both old and new in a single graph. For now we move into a different grade, to be judged among our peers and by their standards, a modern state distinguished only by its intangible and increasingly elusive "crack". "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1354677,00.html

Funny that of the two authors of that article, you quote the one (the ever dour John Waters) who is more skeptical of the quality of life in Ireland. I thought that this quote from the other (Joseph O'Connor) was sort of pertinent to this whole thread:

[font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Yet there is a certain streak of gloom among some of the Dublin commentariat, who refuse to accept that things are better now than they were in the Ireland of Frank McCourt.

[/font]

It struck me that if the only thing you have to complain about is that you can't complain loudly, then you really have very little to complain about.

Well, [broken link removed] some not so sweet stats about Singapore so:

• Two years mandatory national service for all citizens and child soldiers in the army (volunteers are accepted from age 16).
• c. 7.5% illiteracy rate (over 15 years olds).
• Being a hub of the "Golden Triangle" for worldwide heroin smuggling.
• Piracy problems that persist in the Malacca Strait.
• SARS.

Far away hills etc...

 

[RainyDay]

It gets me sometimes that I'm surprised that the meal ONLY costs €50 (Without Wine, starters, tea, coffee, dessert etc.). I think if you eat out a lot in Dublin your sense of what constitutes value for money get's shifted. That's why trips abroad are such a jarring experience.

-Rd

Not my experience on a recent trip to the Amalfi coast in Italy. We found some great value restaurants, one great over-priced restaurant, one terrible over-priced restaurant, and some crap restaurants - Much the same as Dublin IMHO.

Fair play daltonr, agree with ye 100%. As for RainyDay - what kind of argument is it to say that if we think we're being ripped off by taxis/shops/dentists that we should open run our own taxi/shop/dentist business? Thats just a daft statement. Are we not allowed to complain about prices any more? So if I complain that going to the dentist costs too much in this country you suggest I should train to become a dentist myself? Sheesh!

Am I not allowed to complain about your complaining? Because that's really all I've seen on this thread - negative whinging with little positive action. How many of those complaining are prepared to get up of their asses & do some thing positive? If you're really, really convinced that Ireland is a rip-off, then emigrate? Or vote differently next time round (most of us won't vote differently, and a fair proportion of us won't vote at all). Or become politically active? Or start a new party if you don't like the current ones? Or contribute to websites like Irishfuelprices.com (how many of the users of the site actually provide input to the site by way of price updates)?

But back to my original point - how do you make your living, Ceist Beag?

 

[Noor77]

Well, if people are going to deflect from the lack of objective evidence supporting their assertions and flippantly dismiss requests for same as mere semantics then there really is little point in trying to engage in reasoned discussion on this issue.

That is a bit unfair Clubman, I tried my best to point you in the direction of the info I was quoting from - I even copied the whole Google link for you!

 

[ClubMan]

Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;

(11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman

What did this add to the discussion?

 

[Noor77]

What did this add to the discussion?

I'm sorry if I offended you

 

[daltonr]

> Two years mandatory national service for all citizens

If that's what it takes to have a city as clean and a people as polite, helpful, and well behaved as I witnessed, then let's get some of that. Don't the Swiss have something similar. Seems to work there too.

>Being a hub of the "Golden Triangle" for worldwide heroin smuggling.

A transit point for golden triangle drugs is how the CIA describe it, but if you interpret that as a hub of the triangle then ok. You forgot to include what the CIA said about Irelands drugs. At least as bad if not worse.

Since you bring up the CIA figures, let's go hog wild.

Singapore Ireland
Infant Mortality 2.29/1000 5.39/1000
Life Expectancy 81.62 Years 77.56 Years
HIV/AIDS 0.2% 0.1%
Literacy 92.5% 98%
Unemployment Rates 3.4% 4.3%
Population Below Poverty Line N/A 10%

I do'nt know if NA means they don't have figures, or there's no poverty. I presume
it's the former. But whatever it is I doubt their figure is 10% or anywhere near it.

As I've said before I'm not going to go about promoting Singapore as a place to move to because I've only spent 4 days there, and I've only really started reading about the place. But if you're going to throw up figures to show that it's far away hills aren't greener then those close to home then you really should show the figures for home too.

Rainyday:

Or vote differently next time round (most of us won't vote differently, and a fair proportion of us won't vote at all).

I do vote very carefully.

Or become politically active?

Been there bought the T-Shirt (Literally). Realised that membership of a party was a was of time and energy.

Because that's really all I've seen on this thread - negative whinging with little positive action. How many of those complaining are prepared to get up of their asses & do some thing positive?

You may not like it but my "positive action" is persuasion. If I got myself a soap box and stood in a town square to lambast the government and propose alternative policies you'd presumably approve and call it positive political action.

In the past when if described alternative policies you've generally agreed with them.

All I'm doing is using technology to make the soap box bigger. From comments on here it seems some people are pursueded, or have agreed all along.

I'm absolutely delighted that someone with an even BIGGER soap box, Eddie Hobbs is now spreading exactly the same message, and that message is meeting with popular approval by all accounts.

Perhaps all is not lost. Perhaps after a few years of banging on about this people are starting to realise that they've been sold a pup. OF course there will be some like yourself who disagree, of course some will ridicule what I'm saying as "Boring", "Tiresome" etc. Of course there will be the "If you don't like it, get out" brigade.

But that's political discussion. I don't think being a foot soldier for a political party is a great idea. But if people want to go that way then good luck to them. I think my way is at least as likely to get results. And it doesn't involve bothering people during their tea and trying to get them to vote for my candidate.

-Rd

 

[ClubMan]

If that's what it takes to have a city as clean and a people as polite, helpful, and well behaved as I witnessed, then let's get some of that. Don't the Swiss have something similar. Seems to work there too.

How do you make the linkage between training people to kill others and them being polite, helpful and well behaved?

You forgot to include what the CIA said about Irelands drugs. At least as bad if not worse.

Since you bring up the CIA figures, let's go hog wild.

Singapore Ireland...

My point was not to compare Ireland and Singapore - it was simply to point out that Singapore was not necessarily the Utopia that you seemed to paint it as and that it, like most other places on Earth, had its own set of problems.

Population Below Poverty Line N/A 10%

I do'nt know if NA means they don't have figures, or there's no poverty. I presume
it's the former. But whatever it is I doubt their figure is 10% or anywhere near it.

Why do you doubt that figure? Do you have a different one?

As I've said before I'm not going to go about promoting Singapore as a place to move to because I've only spent 4 days there, and I've only really started reading about the place. But if you're going to throw up figures to show that it's far away hills aren't greener then those close to home then you really should show the figures for home too.

Not at all - because, as I said, my point was not do to a comparative analysis.

You may not like it but my "positive action" is persuasion.

...

All I'm doing is using technology to make the soap box bigger. From comments on here it seems some people are pursueded, or have agreed all along.

Perhaps you should aim for a wider audience than AAM will reach so. After all, in spite of it being relatively popular I'm sure that only a tiny fraction of the general public actually read it. There could be more efficient ways for your to disseminate your views and reach a wider audience with the same amount of effort if you are serious about persuading people and talking them around to your way of thinking. This is not a sarcastic comment by the way - I am merely making a constructive suggestion even though I don't agree with much of what you say.

Perhaps all is not lost. Perhaps after a few years of banging on about this people are starting to realise that they've been sold a pup. OF course there will be some like yourself who disagree, of course some will ridicule what I'm saying as "Boring", "Tiresome" etc. Of course there will be the "If you don't like it, get out" brigade.

It might also help if you did not engage in name calling and try to browbeat those of a different opinion into submission or dismiss them in this way as this will merely tend to alientate many of the people that you are trying to persuade.

 

[soc]

Singapore was not necessarily the Utopia that you seemed to paint it as

For someone who nit picks everyone else who posts on this forum, perhaps you should assess your own posts before posting. Daltonr said:

I'm not going to claim it's Utopia

All I can say, is thank GOD I have the freedom to leave this place and move to somewhere better... which looks to be fairly soon. I pity all you people out there who don't have multiple residencies.

-soc

 

[ClubMan]

For someone who nit picks everyone else who posts on this forum, perhaps you should assess your own posts before posting. Daltonr said:

My mistake - well spotted. It doesn't fundamentally affect the main gist of my post though.

All I can say, is thank GOD I have the freedom to leave this place and move to somewhere better... which looks to be fairly soon.

Just out of curiosity where are you moving to and why do you consider it better than here?

I pity all you people out there who don't have multiple residencies.

Why? Do you have multiple residencies in spite of the alleged rip-offs that you are subjected to here?

 

[delgirl]

A transit point for golden triangle drugs is how the CIA describe it, but if you interpret that as a hub of the triangle then ok. You forgot to include what the CIA said about Irelands drugs. At least as bad if not worse.

What the CIA info actually says is "as a transportation and financial services hub, Singapore is vulnerable, despite strict laws and enforcement, to be used as a transit point for Golden Triangle heroin"

This is very different to ClubMan's "Being a hub of the "Golden Triangle" for worldwide heroin smuggling".

Have to agree with daltonr on this one and I'm not going to quote any stats or excerpts from reports etc., but will rely on life experience and opinion.

I lived there for 2 years and feel that Ireland could learn a lot from Singapore particularly in the policing, drug laws and enforcement and religious tolerance practiced in this wonderful country.

You can walk along any of the city's streets at any hour of the night and not fear being attacked by a drunken yob, mugged by a junkie or raped by sex fiend as the policing is second to none and the penalties for any of these offences are severe enough to act as an effective deterrent. I certainly wouldn't do this in Dublin.

The religious harmony that exists between the Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Christians etc. has to be experienced to be believed. Everyone celebrates Ramadan, Eid, Christmas, Diwali etc. regardless of their religion and there is no animosity towards others of a different faith.

During the time we lived there, we felt that the amount of tax we paid was in proportion with the level of services (public transport, health, education, law enforcement, waste disposal and city cleansing, etc.) on offer - and that, in imho, is why so many people in Ireland feel that they are being ripped off.

 

[ClubMan]

What the CIA info actually says is "as a transportation and financial services hub, Singapore is vulnerable, despite strict laws and enforcement, to be used as a transit point for Golden Triangle heroin"

This is very different to ClubMan's "Being a hub of the "Golden Triangle" for worldwide heroin smuggling".

Mea culpa.

 

[ClubMan]

I just noticed that Singapore retains the death penalty which would put it off the map for me personally no matter how great the quality of living was.

 

[Ceist Beag]

I'm sorry rainyDay, I must have missed something - your original point was about what job I have?

 

[ClubMan]

[broken link removed] contains some interesting reading on crime statistics worldwide.

 

[soc]

Just out of curiosity where are you moving to and why do you consider it better than here?

Hmm... let's see.

I work in Central Dublin... thanks to the pitiful infrastructure, to get to work I have to drive to work, then catch a bus (and I only live in Firhouse!).. therefore to get to work I foot the bill for fuel, and an annual bus ticket.

Infrastructure/Income Tax/Road Tax: Value for money? No!

Having to rely on public transport to get me to work, and having to drive there, you'd think that with all the taxes, etc I pay there would be such thing as a park and ride... but NO! I have to park my car on a street.

Infrastructure/Income Tax/Road Tax: Value for money? No!

Now...having paid my road taxes, I'm entitled to park my car on a public road - but some sh!ts thought that they would deflate 2 tyres on each car that was parked on the road, that I parked on. Note, this road is just down the road from a Garda station.

Infrastructure/Income Tax/Road Tax: Value for money? No!

I slowly manage to drive my car to the closest petrol station, and pumped each tyre up, which took ages. I then promptly went to Donnybrook Garda Station to report the criminal damage. To do this, I had to park in a PAY and DISPLAY carpark. 20c buys 2 minutes parking!

Paying for Carpark: Value for money? No!

Now, having parked my car & paid for the privilege - I walk to the Garda station - and reported the matter. Did they write anything down? No. Did they ask for my name? No. Did they ask for my car reg? No. All they said was 'we'll send someone out, to have a look'. I was bitterly disappointed in their lack of enthusiasm to investigate the matter. I don't think my complaint was even registered in their system... no wonder crime is artificially low!

Govt Provided Service: Value for money? No!

By chance I happened to be going to the dentist shortly after this incident. On being given the all clear, I was told that I could claim my visit on PRSI, if I have been contributing to it. Damn right I've been contributing to it... hang on there's a catch! To claim on PRSI, you have to have been contributing to it for 5+ years! Come on! I mean, the visit would cost me €60... but to claim on PRSI, it will only cost me €30. The state is only contributing to €30 towards the cost, but that is only if I have paid:
(SALARY * 5% [PRSI]) * 5 years

Regardless of how long I've been paying PRSI, I should be entitled to claim on it. That's the point to 'public' insurance.

PRSI Contributions: Value for money? No!

Why? Do you have multiple residencies in spite of the alleged rip-offs that you are subjected to here?

By residencies, I mean ability to live in other countries (citizenships).

I certainly don't feel that I'm getting value for money here... that's what defines 'Rip-off Republic'. Ireland has a put-up and shut-up kind of ethos.

-soc

 

[Humpback]

I just noticed that Singapore retains the death penalty which would put it off the map for me personally no matter how great the quality of living was.

Are you likely to get caught doing something that will mean you'd be in danger of being sentenced to death then Clubman???

 

[ClubMan]

Are you likely to get caught doing something that will mean you'd be in danger of being sentenced to death then Clubman???

No - I just have a conscientious objection to the death penalty and would not live in a country that retained it.

Ireland has a put-up and shut-up kind of ethos.

What do you mean by this?

Hmm... let's see.

So for those reasons above you are planning to move abroad? Sounds a bit drastic to me but good luck with it all the same.

 

[Humpback]

No - I just have a conscientious objection to the death penalty and would not live in a country that retained it.

And obviously you're entitled to your opinion and subsequent choice of location to live.

However, how does the presence or absence of the death penalty affect your quality of life?

If Ireland had the death penalty today, and removed it tomorrow, all of the complaints (valid or otherwise) on this thread, wouldn't go away - everyones (on this board who hasn't committed a capital crime) quality of life here wouldn't improve because of the removal of the death penalty.

 

[ClubMan]

And obviously you're entitled to your opinion and subsequent choice of location to live.

However, how does the presence or absence of the death penalty affect your quality of life?

If Ireland had the death penalty today, and removed it tomorrow, all of the complaints (valid or otherwise) on this thread, wouldn't go away - everyones (on this board who hasn't committed a capital crime) quality of life here wouldn't improve because of the removal of the death penalty.

I would argue that the retention of the death penalty has a generalised and pervasive brutalising effect on the society of the country in question but obviously it is hard to quantify this in objective terms. Insofar as I believe that to be the case the presence of the death penalty would adversely affect my quality of life in such a country as I would consider myself partly and collectively responsible for state sponsored killing. A society that retains the right to kill citizens is not one that I would choose to be part of. But we're really getting off topic now as far as I can see.