Rip Off Republic - Episode #2 - review

[Noor77]

From the Irish CWC (Community Workers Co-operative) submission to the EU, in relation to the EU Draft Constitution, April 13th 2005.

The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns poverty, exclusion and social justice. It is worth noting that Eurobarometer polls consistently put social exclusion, unemployment and poverty at the top of the list. The EU currently has 68 million people living in poverty.


Unfortunately, Ireland consistently features as the most unequal society in the EU. We currently share with Slovakia the dubious distinction of having the greatest percentage of people at risk of poverty in the EU (21%).

EU website: [broken link removed]
cwc website: [broken link removed]

Clubman, you seem to thrive on thrashing out the semantics of people's posts - surely that is not the point on a matter such as this? If you do not see homeless people on your route home, I must congratulate you on the area you live in. I volunteer at a homeless shelter and the people I meet there come from all walks of life. It is very easy to choose only to see what we believe in - if you wish to believe that the Ireland of today is an equitable and just place, you have every right to do so. It is, perhaps, an issue which you feel is of little importance to your life. I think the ostrich also prefers to bury its head in the sand.

 

[jem]

the following letter was in todays indo .
Schools in the US are not perfect


Sir - As a resident of Michigan, I laughed when I read Barbara Johnston's letter about schools in the US. She paints a wonderful picture and I have no doubt that in the particular district she visited in the US her impressions of the schools were accurate. However, the reality is far from the utopia she describes.

The school funding in each state here is dependent on the tax base in each particular district and the whims of a local school board whose members make decisions down to the textbooks the children use.

Many schools in wealthy districts certainly conform to her description. However, this is not the case in 'middle' or 'working-class' neighbourhoods, not to mention the 'ghettos'. In the latter districts, funding is an ongoing problem. When the existing schools need refurbishment or, heaven forbid, a new school is deemed necessary because of increasing populations, then a tax levy has to be voted in by the people of that district. So, either the property taxes are increased immediately to cover the cost or, if the levy fails, the schools don't get the funding needed.

Of course, when the property taxes increase every few years, many retired people on a fixed income, who have raised their families and lived 25 or 30 years in these same districts, cannot then afford these taxes and are required to sell their houses and move elsewhere - often to a state with lower taxes and, hence, non-desirable school districts. Thus, the value of your house can be directly related to the school district you live in. I think some of the realities of the American system, if known, would not be a popular solution to problems in Irish schools.

By the way, the school buses here don't have seat belts either.
Marie Hoffman,
Westbrooke Drive,
Lapeer,
USA



Makes interesting reading.

 

[ClubMan]

Clubman, you seem to thrive on thrashing out the semantics of people's posts - surely that is not the point on a matter such as this?

I'm just challenging the cosy cartel of rip-off begrudgers.

If you do not see homeless people on your route home, I must congratulate you on the area you live in.

I have lived in Dublin 7 (currently, and for the past ten years, in relatively close proximity to Dublin 1) for my whole life - a great place but arguably not the plushest part of Dublin overall. There are several hostels for the homeless in the vicinity. Maybe I don't see people sleeping on the streets in my area or on my route home from work because they are being catered for by these institutions?

I volunteer at a homeless shelter and the people I meet there come from all walks of life.

Do you honestly think that most people are in this situation due to "rip-off Ireland"?

It is very easy to choose only to see what we believe in

If you think that I'm lying about not seeing people sleeping in the streets then so be it - not my problem.

- if you wish to believe that the Ireland of today is an equitable and just place, you have every right to do so.

I never said that everything was equitable and just. This thread was about alleged rip-offs and the consumer getting screwed. It wasn't about the wider issues of social equity and the like. But since you mention it, do you believe that society should be totally equitable such that everybody has exactly the same in terms of wages, wealth etc.? I don't and believe in a meritocracy with the safety net of social/community welfare system to cater for those who can't sufficiently cater/fend for themselves.

It is, perhaps, an issue which you feel is of little importance to your life. I think the ostrich also prefers to bury its head in the sand.

How am I doing this?

 

[Noor77]

I'm just challenging the cosy cartel of rip-off begrudgers.

do you believe that society should be totally equitable such that everybody has exactly the same in terms of wages, wealth etc.? I don't and believe in a meritocracy with the safety net of social/community welfare system to cater for those who can't sufficiently cater/fend for themselves.

How am I doing this?

I'm not a communist is that's what you are wondering!

I believe everyone has a basic right to education, health and housing and I think that we should do everything we can to ensure that that, as a country, we provide the best public services that we possibly can in this regard. I am more than willing to pay increased tax in order that this might be achieved. I have always had private health care and private schooling, but that does not mean that I don't care about the state of public health care and education. Just because I am alright does not make me less aware of all the people that are not. I think we are being ripped off by being expected to put up with shambolic public services.

 

[ClubMan]

I'm not a communist is that's what you are wondering!

I didn't actually - but now I'm worried about what you might think that I am.

I think we are being ripped off by being expected to put up with shambolic public services.

Fair enough - all I am asking for from people who assert this is some hard evidence. I am currently looking at the links that you posted earlier - thanks.

 

[ClubMan]

From the Irish CWC (Community Workers Co-operative) submission to the EU, in relation to the EU Draft Constitution, April 13th 2005.

The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns poverty, exclusion and social justice. It is worth noting that Eurobarometer polls consistently put social exclusion, unemployment and poverty at the top of the list. The EU currently has 68 million people living in poverty.


Unfortunately, Ireland consistently features as the most unequal society in the EU. We currently share with Slovakia the dubious distinction of having the greatest percentage of people at risk of poverty in the EU (21%).

Do you have a link to the original article in question? I can't seem to find it on the CWC site. I presume that they're referring to relative and rather than absolute poverty as explained by the . If so is there any objective definition of what constitutes relative poverty that can be applied across the board (e.g. across different countries in the EU)?

EU website: [broken link removed]
cwc website: [broken link removed]

Also - what specifically should I be looking at on the europa.eu.int website that backs up the assertions of rip-offs and injustice made in this thread?

 

[Humpback]

Schools in the US are not perfect

This and many other posts in this thread are comparing us to other countries. You're seeing that things aren't so good in other countries, and then using that as a justification for why things aren't so good here.

Is there any point in this discussion whatsoever?

Looking at our country. Do we really think that we're not being ripped off, for example, in the fact that our roads project was forecasted to cost €9bn, but this programme, still not completed, will cost us in excess of €18bn.

It doesn't matter how much roads cost elsewhere, or how good they are anywhere else.

Purely taking Ireland only, is this really value for money? Are we getting roads twice as good as originally planned? Or are we getting ripped off/overcharged (whatever!!) by those building and funding those roads?

 

[Betsy Og]

Dublin has a very visible homeless community, all along the quays, the vicinity of Tara St station etc., I dont think thats a subject worth debating it is so obvious.

Its hard to imagine how something cant be done to sort this out - Swedes would tell you its unheard of to see people sleeping rough, can we get a dollop of that please???

 

[mmclo]

I wonder if Alcohol can be viewed in the same commercial terms as other products, after all it has addictive qualities for some and there are major public health issues. This is not to say I support the publicans.


The state does have to regualte products like alcohol although the way they do it can be criticised. The WHO and the governments own Strategic Task Force make compelling and well researched arguments as to why restrictions are needed on the availability of alcohol. Although these may not have been to the fore in the cafe bars debate.

I don't agree with him that it was a subversion of democracy given that 40 backbenchers and others signify a lot of electoral support until we change the people we vote for! Apart from that he's doing a good job

 

[sherib]

Is an ERSI report evidence?
[broken link removed]

Why is Relative Income Poverty so High in Ireland?
Abstract
Although relative income poverty rates vary from year to year, the rankings of different industrialised countries according to these poverty measures tend to be rather stable. Ireland is consistently among a group of countries with relative income poverty rates considerably above the European Union average (though not as high as the USA). This has not changed over the course of Irelands recent economic boom, since our relative income poverty rates themselves have not fallen indeed they have generally risen over that period. This study asks why Ireland has higher relative income poverty rates than many of our EU partners? More specifically, it explores what we can learn from an in-depth comparison with a number of other European countries, including some of the best performers in the European Union in terms of that indicator.

As evidence of my lack of bias (??) Ireland came top in the Economist's Quality of Life Index but how reliable is that? Don't think they measured:
(1) Hours spent in traffic Jams and commuting distances
(2) The price of a pint
(3) Creche costs
(4) Holidays in Ireland being too expensive forcing us to fly
(5) Eddie Hobbs irritating presenting style
(6) Sick people on hospital trolleys
(7) Cappucinos costing €3/small cup
(8) 100% mortgages to put a roof over our heads
(9) Increasing levels of alcoholism and obesity
(10) Insufficent time to spend with children or family and much more......

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

Ireland is the world's most pleasant place to live, according to The Economist's Quality of Life Index (2005), though if you deduct them a point for their plaintive whinging ballads they drop to 19th, just ahead of Portugal. The whole index is deeply flawed, in my opinion. It seems to be weighted in favour of lame-o Scando-Canadian-style countries, where no one with any self-respect would live. Yes, yes, they are having the mass literacy and the vonderful social spending; but they are even colder and more depressing than Britain, and any realistic assessment of life there ought to take this into account.

 

[Noor77]

As evidence of my lack of bias (??) Ireland came top in the Economist's Quality of Life Index but how reliable is that? Don't think they measured:
(1) Hours spent in traffic Jams and commuting distances
(2) The price of a pint
(3) Creche costs
(4) Holidays in Ireland being too expensive forcing us to fly
(5) Eddie Hobbs irritating presenting style
(6) Sick people on hospital trolleys
(7) Cappucinos costing €3/small cup
(8) 100% mortgages to put a roof over our heads
(9) Increasing levels of alcoholism and obesity
(10) Insufficent time to spend with children or family and much more......

Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;

(11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman

 

[Noor77]

Community Workers Co-operative
[size=-1]File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML
On the Draft EU Constitution. Based on oral presentation of 13th April 2005. ...
The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns ...
www.forumoneurope.ie[/size]

Try this Clubman

 

[stuart]

I have been living back in Ireland for 2.5 years now and all I ever hear is that it is "Rip-off Ireland"

I lived in the UK for 2 years and they called it "Rip-off Britain"

I lived in Barabdos and everyone complained about the prices of everything there also
(Albeit comared to the average wages and food bills they had a more of a point than most)

Sometimes in life, if seomthing is too expensive it is becase you cannot afford it

I know you could go to UK/France/Spain and get things cheaper (since Ireland is a relatively umcompetitve market place)

If you can do it, buy twice as much as you need and sell half at a discount to Irish prices
That should pay for your travel costs

stuart@buyingtolet.ie

PS next week I'll be describing how you can glue capret to the soles of your slippers rather than carpet the whole house

 

[jem]

This and many other posts in this thread are comparing us to other countries. You're seeing that things aren't so good in other countries, and then using that as a justification for why things aren't so good here.

First of all i didn't bring other countries originally others did. I used the past of this country. when they complained about not compairing Ireland of 2005 against other countries I did this but my posts havn't suited so either ignore the points of complain that they aren't relevent.

 

[daltonr]

I lived in the UK for 2 years and they called it "Rip-off Britain"

I sat in a London pub with some young British people (late 20's) a few years ago listened to their Rip-Off Britain stories. And yes, some of the complaints had merit. But when we did direct comparisons with life in Dublin on things like Public Transport, Car Insurance, Bank Charges, Income Tax, Local Tax, Food, Eating Out, etc, etc. Dublin came up very poor second.

None of us had enough experience to directly compare Hospitals or Education, but my feeling was the we probably hold our own in terms of education with most counteries, and are in better shape than an awful lot of countries, even if it's is a bit uncomfortable.

Back then I wasn't as DOWN on Ireland as I am today so it wasn't me talking down Dublin that did it. In fact in those days I used to encourage people to visit Ireland.
I don't do that anymore.

-Rd

 

[sherib]

Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;
(11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman

But of course Noor77 To be fair, this thread does seem to have drifted. ClubMan asked for a definition of Relative Poverty, so here is one:

Relative Poverty
In Ireland and other developed countries, poverty is more usually called relative poverty. In this case, people are considered to be living in poverty if their standard of living is substantially less than the general standard of living in society. The government’s National Anti-Poverty Strategy reflects this: People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living that is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and resources, people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities that are considered the norm for other people

[broken link removed]

It is obvious from the definition that there can't be a standardised one. It is subjective to a particular country and culture. We would hardly expect a definition of relative poverty to be the same for Niger as for Ireland, would we? A stratified sample survey within a country could be more meaningful, which in turn could be compared to some of our close (geographically) European neighbours.

The same applies to Quality of Life Indices. Divorce levels, political freedom, levels of crime, access to health care, Infant Mortality rates, income and home ownership levels etc would raise our QOL index compared to many countries. But that doesn't necessarily prove we are happy with our quality of life currently. We are - compared to the dismal recent past - but it is now that is in question. If we don't identify our perceived problems now, how can we do anything about them? Surely that is a first step?

And before someone points it out, it is axiomatic that life satisfaction is very individual and subjective. There will always be people subjectively less or more contented depending on what or who they are comparing themselves with. The relative poverty definition seems to eliminate that bias.

 

[ClubMan]

Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;

(11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman

Well, if people are going to deflect from the lack of objective evidence supporting their assertions and flippantly dismiss requests for same as mere semantics then there really is little point in trying to engage in reasoned discussion on this issue.

Fair play to sherib for trying to keep the discussion on track and courteous though but methinks that this thread is a lost cause at this stage in spite of that contribution.

 

[sherib]

Quote by Stuart
PS next week I'll be describing how you can glue carpet to the soles of your slippers rather than carpet the whole house

Perfect - and just in time!

 

[ashambles]

The CWC saying 21% of the Irish population are at risk of poverty is extremely vague and I'd suggest useless (surely there isn't 79% of the population in the public sector). It's a statistic someone would come out with if the % in actual poverty was too low to be noteworthy.

The CWC do sound ever so slightly very left of center - I don't really mind but notice they managed to get into the partnership discussions. With the unions and Cori etc. already in there do we really need more woolly headed groups further confusing the issues. Indeed the wage inflation generated by those partnership groups has a signifigant part to play in any so called rip-offs.

 

[ClubMan]

With the unions and Cori etc. already in there do we really need more woolly headed groups further confusing the issues.

And don't forget that some of the groups whose remit is ostensibly to campaign on behalf of the less well off in society actually opposed the abolition of the Groceries Order [broken link removed] that retaining it would be in the interest of the poor!

However, in a joint submission to the review group, the St Vincent de Paul agency, the Combat Poverty Agency and Crosscare opposed repeal.

They argue that, “due to the pattern of consumption in lower-income and disadvantaged groups and the type of retail outlet available to them, repealing the Groceries Order will have, at best, very little impact on their purchasing power or the range of products they can buy.

“This may well cause a negative impact by worsening the inequalities that already exist in the groceries market owing to issues of access and availability of low-cost nutritional foodstuffs in low-density and low-income areas.”