Fair enough. I agree with everything in that post.
Public sector V Public sector
- Thread starter Shawady
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While I was away Dockingtrade took a lot of heat about his comment which was very similar to mine above.
I would like the following stark reminder of what has taken place in the last year:
The survey found that Irish firms had the highest rate of workforce reduction among EMEA nations, with close to 80 per cent of Irish respondents reporting changes to their organisational structure and 61 per cent confirming lay-offs. This compared to an EMEA average of 48 per cent reporting redundancies.
Almost half of Irish participants said they would continue to make reductions in their permanent employee base in the next six months.
Some 26 per cent of Irish firms surveyed had introduced pay cuts, more than twice the EMEA average. This also represented a 50 per cent increase on the number of Irish firms who reported salary cuts in a preliminary survey carried out by Watson Wyatt last June.
[broken link removed]
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z101
Guest
It seems people can make generalities about bankers and politians when it suits your arguments but heaven help us if we make any about cops/teacher/nurses or any of the public service.
They are ALL making the country go broke or is that an 'assumption' or solid fact. lest we care...
They are ALL making the country go broke or is that an 'assumption' or solid fact. lest we care...
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S.L.F
Guest
Please show me where it says anywhere that the unions or any public servant doesn't give a hoot about what is going on in the country.
If you can't have the good grace to retract that remark!
Again please state some facts or provide a link
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z101
Guest
I understand the unions represent their members but they should be informed enough to see that borrowing 500m a week (most of which is PS wages and Social welfare) is not sustainable and is putting the country under. Instead of relaying this realism it's all 'you wont get me I'm part of the union'. So yes they dont display they give a hoot. The 10 point plan was a joke with every solution meaning little as possible impact on their members. Tax increases was proven to cripple this country in the eighties but they dont seem to care that this pool is dimishing and would be counter productive.
Unions keep saying this was caused by the banks not their members. That their members are been asked to pay for others mistakes. That by been asked to pay for their own pensions they are already contributing. They have been churning this out in a bid to get some private sector support for their actions. You may not want to hear it but the realism here is that you may or may not have been part of the problem, but you have to be a big part of the solution, as the cost of the PS is the biggest outgoing of a country that cant afford it.
Unions keep saying this was caused by the banks not their members. That their members are been asked to pay for others mistakes. That by been asked to pay for their own pensions they are already contributing. They have been churning this out in a bid to get some private sector support for their actions. You may not want to hear it but the realism here is that you may or may not have been part of the problem, but you have to be a big part of the solution, as the cost of the PS is the biggest outgoing of a country that cant afford it.
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S.L.F
Guest
One moment you are saying they don't give a hoot then you are saying
LOL
Do please tell me why on earth you think people like you and me wouldn't care about the dogs dinner the FF govt have made of this country.
Do you actually believe that they are immune to the crap that has gone on in the country?
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z101
Guest
Its self explanatory.. wheres the confusion. You are aware not all PS voted to strike. Some care about the state of the country.
I do care and FF will not be in power for a long time to come. They will pay. Thats a given as a result of cowens mishandling especially as min for finance. I am not defending them but thats another debate. I am talking about what the country needs now re badly need spending cuts. Dont know whats your pickle...
I do care and FF will not be in power for a long time to come. They will pay. Thats a given as a result of cowens mishandling especially as min for finance. I am not defending them but thats another debate. I am talking about what the country needs now re badly need spending cuts. Dont know whats your pickle...
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S.L.F
Guest
First it's not self explanatory, you said they don't give a hoot and then you said they don't appear to give a hoot, there is a big difference, since you are not in the head of every one of the 380,000 people that are in the public sector you can't possibly know.
Second an overwhelming majority vote to strike, all of whom I'm positive care about the state of the country but also the state of the Public Service.
I care as well but I believe what the country needs more is a general election, this mess we are in it is due to Cowen, Bertie and the rest of them they need to be out.
The other thing that is never mentioned is whether or not they are able to bring about cuts in pensions, pay or in services that won't bankrupt the country in other ways.
My pickle is when posters start claiming things like the PS are over paid by 40% and other posters have said why not have a cut across the board for all PS workers of 20% which needless to say would cause great hardship for both the country and the people who work in the public service.
I had a good look at the CSO report in it it says that the PS get €973 on average but when the news papers are quoting figures from it they never mention things like the average Civil Service wage is about €850 which isn't bad till you think about all the big boys higher up who are making 5 and 6 times that wage or more, a 20 or 40% pay cut for them wouldn't affect the half as much as someone who is on the minimum wage in the Civil Service.
I know one guy (porter type work) who works in the OPW who depends on the overtime to make enough to feed his family for him to take a 20% pay cut is just plain wrong.
I'm not sure if his overtime has been cut or not, but all organisations need people like him they are the ones who keep the fires burning.
In a nutshell I don't trust this govt to apply paycuts fairly across the board since it was them in the first place who are solely responsible for the shambles we are facing, you may say the unions were involved and all that but the responsibility lies with the people at the helm.
This govt has to go.
And the many many PS workers who voted for strike care about the state of the country. But we also care about being able to pay our mortgages and ESB bills and feed and clothe our children. We're not all earning a fortune you know. The issue is that cuts have to be done fairly and that the Public Sector aren't just used as an easy target by Government.
It always amazes me how some people in the Private Sector get very self righteous about Public Servants being prepared to take huge pay cuts but then start jumping up and down when there's any question of reducing their child benefit or re-introducing university fees or widening tax belts. They don't seem to care so much about the state of the country then.
I agree with you there but the fact remains that the public sector benefited most from the boom (the pay gap has increased considerably between public and private sector over the last 10 years) and, along with social welfare, are the biggest areas of public spending so they have to be targeted for major cuts.
It’s not nice, it may not be all that fair, but it has to happen.
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S.L.F
Guest
but liacon haven't you heard the public sector get €973 a week
on average
across a very broad range of careers, with semi-state companies included and with expenses included
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S.L.F
Guest
Well, the Sindo says so and everyone knows a guy in the pub who says so, so what do I know?? Also, if I was really dynamic and bright and hard working I'd be in the private sector wouldn't I? To be honest I only joined the civil service for the tea breaks and the pension and the automatic promotions and so I could fiddle my flexitime.
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S.L.F
Guest
Ha it's all coming out now!
Anything else???
Come on liacon you'll feel better to let everybody know what wasters all 380,000 people are in the PS, including the dole officers who have to actually work now that all 100% the private sector have lost their jobs (except journalists)
On the radio a few days ago a woman rang into a show arguing the case that child benefits shouldn't be cut. She then let slip that her husband was on 100K plus per year!!??
With regard to the difference in average private and public sector salaries the fact is that the CS/PS employ a large number of professionals like Judges, Barristers, Lawyers, Hospital Consultants, Hospital Doctors, Professors, Engineers of all types, Accountants, Auditors, Pharmacists, Physiologists, Marine Biologists, Geologists, Teachers, Lecturers, Scientists to name but a few. When you consider that one hospital consultant earns multiples of the average industrial wage its not surprising that average wage in the CS/PS is higher. Also a significant number of employees in the CS/PS work 24/7 e.g. Guards, Nurses, Doctors, Firemen, Ambulance drivers, Coast Guard and i for one don't expect them to work nights, weekends, bank holidays without being compensated for it (although there is case to rationalize all the allowances).
In my own field of Information Technology I can tell you for a fact that IT people from the private sector were not queuing up to seek a career in IT in the CS/PS. Over the years I've had plenty of contact with private sector IT people and I can tell you that never once did one of them inquire off me about joining the CS/PS.
On saying that I want the unions to keep negotiating with our employers. From listening to the media there seems to be the basis of deal within reach - that is let numbers run down over the next few years with so called bridging measures (code for temporary pay cut) being applied in the short term to balance the books.
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S.L.F
Guest
It is possible her husband doesn't give her any money or doesn't give her enough, it's also possible she was arguing for the vast majority of people who need it.
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z101
Guest
It's obvious people have different view. Unions are trying to tell the gov how cuts should be made and that their calculations are wrong. This gov has made a hames of things, but is anyone naive to think FG will not address the situation using the McCarthy report? Labour (luckily) will not lead a government as their policy's of borrow borrow borrow to run the country, laden down the country in the 80's under Ruari Quinn. They policys are correct in theory but damaging in reality.
Also I think child benefit should not be universal and should be means tested. University fees should be introduced to those who can handle them, or better still a student loan scheme such as is in the UK. I also believe it's scandalous we dont have water charges. These things dont add up to me Liaconn and yes these people dont care about the prediciment we are in either. But this was not the nature of the debate so I didn't think to mention it. The tax system in Ireland is flawed and needs to be addressed. But that does change the fact that 500m is been spend each week and 4billion od cuts need to be made this year. The country is not competitive at the moment. The Public service cuts will be made in the budget to address our current expenditure and after that those things you spoke about need to be cut as savings will still be needed for next year.
Also I think child benefit should not be universal and should be means tested. University fees should be introduced to those who can handle them, or better still a student loan scheme such as is in the UK. I also believe it's scandalous we dont have water charges. These things dont add up to me Liaconn and yes these people dont care about the prediciment we are in either. But this was not the nature of the debate so I didn't think to mention it. The tax system in Ireland is flawed and needs to be addressed. But that does change the fact that 500m is been spend each week and 4billion od cuts need to be made this year. The country is not competitive at the moment. The Public service cuts will be made in the budget to address our current expenditure and after that those things you spoke about need to be cut as savings will still be needed for next year.
Dude I think you need to check your dates and figures there!
Ruari Quinn was Minister for Finance in 1995 if I recall correctly.
He was also no tax and spend finance Minister...
"During Quinn's tenure as Minister for Finance, the overall tax burden in Ireland (the ratio of tax revenue, including pay related social insurance levies, to gross national product) fell from 38.7% to 34.8%, of by 1.3 percentage points each year. He achieved this by limiting current government spending to grow by 6.8% in nominal terms or 4.8% in real terms, against a backdrop of improving economic fortunes, due to increasing investment in technology intensive sectors of the Irish economy.
Under Quinn, the General Government Balance went from a deficit of 2.1% in 1995 to a surplus of 1.1% in 1997. The General Government Debt went from 81% of GNP in 1995 to 63.6% in 1997".
I think he may also have been the one who initially applied to Brussels for permission to lower corporation tax to 10% (was initially 10% I think and then went to 12.5%).
Its worth considering that if the Rainbow Government had stayed in power for the decade 1995 to 2005 if we would have had the housing boom and subsequent bust.!!!
I doubt if they would have let the price of houses and development land run out of control like a run away train as they did.
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z101
Guest
Your right I stand corrected, I meant mid eighties FG/ Labour coaliton where even Today Alan Duke/Gareth Fitzgerald admits raising taxes was a huge mistake and the subsequest borrowing at Labours insistance. sorry Ruari
Not sure if I aggree with your last line. One of the big mistakes was raising the stamp duty level to 317,000 which caused house prices to inflate to that level. Cowen was as useless a min for finance as he is Taoseach. He also pandered to the Unions thus causing this mess. At the time the opposition said this raise in the stamp duty exemption levels was not enough and should have been higher for FTB's. I dont remember any political party as a policy come out strongly against anything during the boom. Hindsight is 20/20 but the reality is they all would have done nothing. Everyone is an expert now but I think McWilliams is the only one who warned.
I thought the low corporate tax rate came under the Tallaght aggrement in Early 90's?? am open to correction to that one also.
Not sure if I aggree with your last line. One of the big mistakes was raising the stamp duty level to 317,000 which caused house prices to inflate to that level. Cowen was as useless a min for finance as he is Taoseach. He also pandered to the Unions thus causing this mess. At the time the opposition said this raise in the stamp duty exemption levels was not enough and should have been higher for FTB's. I dont remember any political party as a policy come out strongly against anything during the boom. Hindsight is 20/20 but the reality is they all would have done nothing. Everyone is an expert now but I think McWilliams is the only one who warned.
I thought the low corporate tax rate came under the Tallaght aggrement in Early 90's?? am open to correction to that one also.