Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come from?

[thedaras]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

We have flexi days where I work and we call them a "day off" as you are off that day, the fact you have worked up the hours does not alter the fact that for that day you are "off".

There is a very pedantic streak running through this thread regarding the terminology of time not spent at work. It's hard to make a point about anything without someone jumping down your throat saying a day off, aholiday, unpaid leave, etc are terms of spin designed to make the PS look bad. Get over the paranoia lads.

Couldnt have put it better myself..

Me thinks its a stratagy

 

[z107]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Can't imagine the Dail not sitting for 12 fewer days next year.

lol! - can they sit minus days?

Why don't they just not bother sitting at all and stop the charade of pretending to run the country (we know who our real overlords are). That would definitely save us a great deal of money.

 

[Purple]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Flexi-days are time off in lieu of hours that have been already worked up. If you dont take the time off you lose it. In the CS you can only work up 10.5 hours, any more than that is lost. You can then only take one and half days off - again, this is time that has been worked up and staff are more than entitled to take it. Not all areas of the public service have flexi-time either.

Now, how difficult is this to understand?

See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...

Purple, schools and colleges may close over the christmas time but no public office closes for weeks over christmas? My office closes, christmas day, Stephens day and the following day. It also closes New Years day. Thats hardly weeks.

What about the admin and HR offices of schools and colleges etc?

The majority of the public services never close - Hospitals, Fire services and Gardai.

The majority of the public sector is not made up of the front line staff in Hospitals, Fire services and Gardai and they do indeed close.

 

[sidzer]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

I can't believe this nonsense idea is being considered!

Our country is in an economic shambles and it needs urgent and radical attention. Big decisions need to be made but we seem to be lacking in big people.

Public servants in this country have enjoyed very good wages and conditions - higher than most of our much wealther neighbours - I know because I am a public sector worker.

It's time we all pulled together and offered to help and a 7% cut in wages is a small sacrifice compared to what many in the private sector have had to endure.

I personally am very disillusioned by my fellow country men / women. I live in a border town and witness the masses crossing over the border to shop on a daily basis at a time when we need to support local business and our economy. Last weeks strike was such a joke - many of my fellow public sector workers spent the day in NI shopping after a half an hour on the picket line!

Just heard on news that the stock value of Tesco is equivelant to the entire value of the Irish Stock Exchange. Just try getting a parking space in Tesco Banbridge with all the Irish Reg cars with roof boxes.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...

I have to be honest and say that I know plenty of people who only work their flat hours and will not even go a minute beyond. I also know of plenty of people who have flexi time and build up hours accordingly (basically staying behind playing on the internet for an hour or so). All in the private sector. If I'm honest, I tend to stick to my hours more often than not, just because I can get my work done in a working day. I don't doubt the hard work you do Purple and the need for longer hours in your organisation, but I do know that a lot of my own colleagues work long hours just for show and because it's expected. I don't feel I should be looked down upon (in work) just because I'm able to get on with work and actually get done what I'm supposed to get done in a normal working day.

The thing we're missing (that I can see) is that this is a union proposal to avoid unversal pay cuts. Yet they're proposing something even worse. It's been spun as both a government proposal (it isn't) and that it adds to the benefits of the PS. How does losing half a month's pay benefit anyone?

I don't understand how there isn't more anger from PS workers that this was the best option their representatives could come up with. Where's the cut in the higher pay? Is it a coincidence that the union officials negotiating this deal benchmark their pay against top paid civil servants?

For all that huff about the lower paid, well they've proposed a deal that puts the very same people in the exact same position as they were insisting the strike was about.

There's an opportunity here for fair and balanced reform. Reform that will affect a few and mean some redundancies but an overall more efficient and effective service and what do we have? A proposal by the unions that punishes every single person in the PS and CS irrespective of how hard they work. A system that proposes less time at work for those essential front line staff they were trying to protect and that takes more money off them.

But at least that top pay benchmark stays untouched eh lads. Nice one.

 

[liaconn]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

We have flexi days where I work and we call them a "day off" as you are off that day, the fact you have worked up the hours does not alter the fact that for that day you are "off".

There is a very pedantic streak running through this thread regarding the terminology of time not spent at work. It's hard to make a point about anything without someone jumping down your throat saying a day off, aholiday, unpaid leave, etc are terms of spin designed to make the PS look bad. Get over the paranoia lads.

It is not pedantic to object to the misrepresentation of flexi time and to use this to underpin an argument. I think you're the ones being paranoid. No one is 'jumping down your throat' or taking part in an organised strategy. We're simply arguing our case. That is allowed, isn't it Der Kaiser?

 

[liaconn]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...

Purple, this is a separate argument. If you don't agree with flexi time then why not open a thread instead of muddying the waters here?

 

[Purple]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Purple, this is a separate argument. If you don't agree with flexi time then why not open a thread instead of muddying the waters here?

Just pointing out that goods terms and conditions are enjoyed by most (but by no means all) public sector employees so crying about hardship just doesn't hold water.

 

[shnaek]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

See the thing is I don’t know anyone who only works their flat hours, be they public or private sector. Working up 10.5 hours overtime in a week is easy, doing it in a month is a piece of cake and that’s if your week is 39 hours long. Since the public sector week is so much shorter it’s even easier to work up the extra hours. I accept that they aren’t holiday days per say but really...

+1
In any place I've worked, it would be noticed if you were a clock watcher. But I think long hours have always been expected in IT. On the other hand, my friends in the PS do chalk down every 15 minutes extra they work, and often do this so they can get extra days. Having said that, they are in the main hard workers, and are simply exploiting an option open to them. Just like Henry. Many of us might do the same were the option to be available to us.

 

[Howitzer]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

The thing we're missing (that I can see) is that this is a union proposal to avoid unversal pay cuts. Yet they're proposing something even worse. It's been spun as both a government proposal (it isn't) and that it adds to the benefits of the PS. How does losing half a month's pay benefit anyone?

I don't understand how there isn't more anger from PS workers that this was the best option their representatives could come up with. Where's the cut in the higher pay? Is it a coincidence that the union officials negotiating this deal benchmark their pay against top paid civil servants?

For all that huff about the lower paid, well they've proposed a deal that puts the very same people in the exact same position as they were insisting the strike was about.

It's even worse than that. The pay cuts being proposed would have been graduated, having little or no effect on the lower paid. This proposal actually takes a bigger percenbtage of after tax pay from those on lower incomes than those on higher incomes as the income being forgone is at the marginal rate.

But at least that top pay benchmark stays untouched eh lads. Nice one.

Indeed.

This just highlights once more to me how ill informed and mis-led many PS union members are.

There will be plenty of people walking away from this smelling of roses but it sure as hell won't be those on the lower pay grades, of which I can only assume the PS posters on here don't represent.

 

[Shawady]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

It's even worse than that. The pay cuts being proposed would have been graduated, having little or no effect on the lower paid. This proposal actually takes a bigger percenbtage of after tax pay from those on lower incomes than those on higher incomes as the income being forgone is at the marginal rate.

Well just listening to some of the FF backbenchers on the radio and I would say this unpaid leave proposal is dead in the water.
It sounds like it is back to graduated pay cuts.

 

[csirl]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Flexi time only applies to the lower grades of the civil service i.e. clerical workers. They are also the most militant workers and conseqently manage to get a better deal than most because in general terms, the civil service management try to avoid conflict. The recent pension levy was 7%, but clerical grades got away with a much lower precentage and the remainder of the PS got a deduction of a lot more than 7%. In percentage terms, they are also probably the most over paid in the civil service when compared with equivalents in the private sector i.e. general operative type office staff.

 

[Howitzer]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

The recent pension levy was 7%, but clerical grades got away with a much lower precentage and the remainder of the PS got a deduction of a lot more than 7%.

Have you got a link for that? I was under the impression it was graduated simply based upon salary with no exemptions.

 

[csirl]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Have you got a link for that? I was under the impression it was graduated simply based upon salary with no exemptions.

The clerical grades are those with the lower salary scales.

 

[liaconn]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Just pointing out that goods terms and conditions are enjoyed by most (but by no means all) public sector employees so crying about hardship just doesn't hold water.

Your post was in response to people pointing out that you had incorrectly included flexi time as leave. You then came back with an argument about why you didn't agree with flexi time. That was not relevant to the point.

 

[liaconn]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Flexi time only applies to the lower grades of the civil service i.e. clerical workers. They are also the most militant workers and conseqently manage to get a better deal than most because in general terms, the civil service management try to avoid conflict. The recent pension levy was 7%, but clerical grades got away with a much lower precentage and the remainder of the PS got a deduction of a lot more than 7%. In percentage terms, they are also probably the most over paid in the civil service when compared with equivalents in the private sector i.e. general operative type office staff.

Actually it applies to middle management as well, and is optional at senior management level (which is ridiculous in my view!)

 

[Teatime]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Well, we'd prefer to stay in work and get paid for those days. But there's no better offer on the table. Reduced pay for the same working hours is the only other option.

OK, fair point. There is also the option of reducing the PS workforce while protecting your pay. I do feel that the unions let the PS down with this idea - it makes their position look rediculous to be honest.

 

[Bill Struth]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

It's time we all pulled together and offered to help and a 7% cut in wages is a small sacrifice compared to what many in the private sector have had to endure.

You call enforcing a blanket pay cut on a particular sector 'pulling together?' Many in the private sector have also not endured any pay cuts.

 

[liaconn]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

It's time we all pulled together and offered to help and a 7% cut in wages is a small sacrifice compared to what many in the private sector have had to endure.

We've already taken a 7% pay cut. (on top of the 2% income levy). A 14% pay cut might be a 'small sacrifice' for you but don't presume to speak for the entire Public Service.

 

[Caveat]

Re: Pub Sector get 12 days unpaid leave, where are the following years cuts to come f

Many in the private sector have also not endured any pay cuts.

Not all, but many have. Look at the the unemployment figures - that's a 100% cut. Many on 3 day weeks etc. Lots of SMEs closed.

Anyway, why should companies that are profitable and can manage their incomings/outgoings be punished?