President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[Baby boomer]

Of course you apprised us of this situation a long time ago (#4 18th September*) and I would be interested in your thoughts on the following question. (Note that we all agree that Donaldson was wrong and most of us suspect that he was being deliberately provocative. We also all agree that the name of the state is "Ireland".)
Q. Were the CSO similarly incorrect in using "trips in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" rather than "trips in Ireland and Northern Ireland" to describe their survey?
This is key to the central point, for if the CSO have been sloppily incorrect it does rather take the wind from the sails of any criticism of Donaldson even though his "mistake" most likely had more malice in it.

Good question. I think the key is to separate the formal from the colloquial. There is a spectrum from:

A) ultra formal on the one hand (eg diplomatic or international legal documents, passports, visas, etc) IIRC, a British extradition request was once refused by the Irish Courts because it was addressed to the Republic of Ireland.

B) Other legal documents. "Ireland" should be used but isn't always. I've seen many legal contracts that state words such as "this contract shall be governed by the laws of the Republic of Ireland." Technically, this is erroneous and lawyers should really know better! Is any offence meant? Generally, no. Are there any practical consequences? Generally, no, and if push came to shove, the Courts would normally uphold the contract on the basis that the parties knew exactly what the term meant.

C) Formal, but not legal, usage where protocol is expected to be followed. Eg invitation addressed to the President. Care should be taken to get this right. It is insulting not to. I remember in the 1980s the then Telecom Eireann phone book listed the Iraqi embassy as the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Iraq. This was a grave insult to the (nominally) secular regime in Iraq who were at war with the Islamic Republic of Iran at the time! Great umbrage was taken and grovelling apologies had to be issued.

D) Public discourse. Here it gets murkier. We don't, for example refer to Greece, Latvia or Italy as the Hellenic Republic, the Republic of Latvia or the Italian Republic. Yet, these are their official names used when, for example, acceding to EU treaties. Is it wrong or incorrect not to use the full official name? Technically, yes, but generally no offence is, or should be, taken by using the more informal name UNLESS it is done deliberately to insult. (Donaldson's comment falls into this category.)

E) Private discourse. Here, colloquial or shorthand or even informal uses are fine, unless deliberately designed to insult. Eg, "how was your Kiwi holiday?" is unlikely to be problematic, ( unlike a letter addressed to the "Kiwi ambassador.")

So, context is everything. I'd put the CSO thing in or around D on the above scale. Technically incorrect, no intention to cause offence, avoidance of ambiguity is a mitigating factor. Sometimes, it's just difficult to get the balance right.

As a supplementary, if you think the CSO were incorrect, have you any views as to when it would be appropriate for a state body to use the 1948 description rather than the constitutional name? Or do you think that technically a state body should always use the constitutional name and not the legislated description?

It's a balancing act. You weigh up constitutional accuracy against ease of comprehension and avoidance of ambiguity. (Yeah, a cop-out answer, I know!)

* I re-read that very informative post again. Interestingly you assert, and are probably right, that the Brits called us the Republic of Ireland and therefore we dug in our heels and insisted on Ireland. I suspect that discussions along these lines occurred during the GFA negotiations (especially in the context of us retracting those Articles), of which I think I recall Donaldson was a leading Unionist participant. I think there can be little doubt that Donaldson's "mistake" had malice in it.

Absolutely!


BTW, here's the preamble to the Lisbon treaty, interesting reading....:

PREAMBLE

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF BULGARIA,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC,

HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ESTONIA,

THE PRESIDENT OF IRELAND,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC,

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF SPAIN,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LITHUANIA,

HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE OF LUXEMBOURG,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF HUNGARY,

THE PRESIDENT OF MALTA,

HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,

THE FEDERAL PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC,

THE PRESIDENT OF ROMANIA,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SLOVENIA,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE SLOVAK REPUBLIC,

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND,

THE GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN,

HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND,

DESIRING to complete the process started by the Treaty of Amsterdam and by the Treaty of Nice with a view to enhancing the efficiency and democratic legitimacy of the Union and to improving the coherence of its action,

HAVE RESOLVED to amend the Treaty on European Union, the Treaty establishing the European Community....... Yadda, yadda, etc etc.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Wow! You know your stuff. I've a feeling we are in violent agreement but I don't want to push my luck

 

[Purple]

* I re-read that very informative post again. Interestingly you assert, and are probably right, that the Brits called us the Republic of Ireland and therefore we dug in our heels and insisted on Ireland. I suspect that discussions along these lines occurred during the GFA negotiations (especially in the context of us retracting those Articles), of which I think I recall Donaldson was a leading Unionist participant. I think there can be little doubt that Donaldson's "mistake" had malice in it.

That's probably why I get a bit hung up on it.
I also correct UK suppliers who refer to the Island of Britain as 'The Mainland'. I feign confusion and tell them I though they were based in Britain, not the mainland.
What really gets to me is someone calling this country Eire is a flat English accent instead of Ireland. If they were talking about Germany they wouldn't call it Deutschland.

It's one of many things that bothers me more than it should. Then again there's lots of things that bother me far less than they should.

 

[WolfeTone]

the CSO, asking me to participate in the household budget survey on "trips taken in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland"

So, this was the question.

You'd have to be a special kind of moron to think they were asking for date about a different country twice.

You suggest the question should read


- "trips taken in Ireland or Northern Ireland"?

Noting that a simple "trips taken in Ireland?" would, constitutionally, cover the both the entire island, its islands and seas.
That said, some people might think just politically it only refers to 26 Counties.
This would put the validity and accuracy of the data in jeopardy.

So the good people at the CSO saw a resolution to any possible confusion or misunderstanding and used, quite correctly, the official and legitimate description of 'Republic of Ireland' and the disputed (or at least not constitutionally recognised) but accepted, description of 'Northern Ireland'.

 

[Baby boomer]

So, this was the question.



You suggest the question should read


- "trips taken in Ireland or Northern Ireland"?

Noting that a simple "trips taken in Ireland?" would, constitutionally, cover the both the entire island, its islands and seas.
That said, some people might think just politically it only refers to 26 Counties.
This would put the validity and accuracy of the data in jeopardy.

So the good people at the CSO saw a resolution to any possible confusion or misunderstanding and used, quite correctly, the official and legitimate description of 'Republic of Ireland' and the disputed (or at least not constitutionally recognised) but accepted, description of 'Northern Ireland'.

Perhaps "trips taken in Ireland (including Northern Ireland)" better fits the bill?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The point is that the terminology used by the CSO is perfectly legitimate, perfectly correct, perfectly without ambiguity and devoid of any political undertones.
It in no way excuses, as @PMU suggests, the mean spirited politically motivated insult given to our President by the leader of unionists in the six counties.

Heck, I'm sounding like Mary Lou and @WolfeTone rolled together ( sorry for the graphic image, Wolfie)

 

[WolfeTone]

Perhaps "trips taken in Ireland (including Northern Ireland)" better fits the bill?

Perhaps, but if the purpose is to distinguish the data between the two jurisdictions then this only causes confusion as it clearly includes trips in both jurisdictions.

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I don't think this matter is going to get resolved without a bottle of Brandy and a packet of Hamlet cigars.

 

[WolfeTone]

Heck, I'm sounding like Mary Lou and @WolfeTone rolled together ( sorry for the graphic image, Wolfie)

No worries, Im more traumatised by the series of recent 'Likes' you have given me.

My self-belief is being shattered!

 

[Purple]

Perhaps, but if the purpose is to distinguish the data between the two jurisdictions then this only causes confusion as it clearly includes trips in both jurisdictions.

See that's Sinner speak, that 'jurisdictions' thing. This is a country, not a province or a protectorate or a jurisdiction. Why won't you guys refer to this country as a country?

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I don't think this matter is going to get resolved without a bottle of Brandy and a packet of Hamlet cigars.

I only smoke Cohiba's and Brandy gives me heartburn. I'm more of a Bourbon man myself.

 

[WolfeTone]

See that's Sinner speak, that 'jurisdictions' thing. This is a country, not a province or a protectorate or a jurisdiction. Why won't you guys refer to this country as a country?

Oh dear! Time to open the Brandy!
I've never referred to the Republic of Ireland as anything but a country.

that 'jurisdictions' thing

Yeh you're right. Silly thing that 'jurisdictions' thing. Let's do away with it and bring the political sphere into line with the Constitution and just call the whole country and island, Ireland.
After all, 'Northern Ireland' is just the name of a football team.

 

[Purple]

Oh dear! Time to open the Brandy!
I've never referred to the Republic of Ireland as anything but a country.

So you still won't use the name of this country, as per your Party policy. Thanks for the clarification.

Yeh you're right. Silly thing that 'jurisdictions' thing. Let's do away with it and bring the political sphere into line with the Constitution and just call the whole country and island, Ireland.
After all, 'Northern Ireland' is just the name of a football team.

Call it a country. That's what it is.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@Purple I was brought up to believe that we are all sinners
I think you are being a bit harsh on Wolfie but you are dead right on SF/IRA. I wasn’t actually aware that this was their official policy but I Googled this.

What’s in a name? Quite a lot if you are engaged in the linguistic contortions Sinn Féin use to avoid calling the two political administrations on this island by their officially-recognised names.

“The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland,” declares Article 4 of the Irish Constitution though not for Sinn Féin for which Ireland is the politically divided island and not the State.

Neither will the party use the Republic of Ireland, or the Republic for short. This is, according to the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, the description of the State though not its name.

Similarly, the name “Northern Ireland” is regarded as a British construct and is anathema to Sinn Féin supporters who prefer “north of Ireland” which sounds like a slip of the tongue but is intended to convey, in their eyes, the illegitimacy of the political entity north of the border.

This extends to its ministers in the Northern Executive not using the name [broken link removed], though they are in government there.

Such use of language can seem “childish or bizarre”, says Professor Jonathan Tonge of the University of Liverpool who has previously written about Sinn Féin’s dilemma of “serving in a government of a northern state(let) whilst refusing to use the state(let’s) name”.

The language Sinn Féin uses to describe the Republic, or rather to avoid describing it, has come into sharper focus since the party won the largest share of votes in the general election.

In a long blog post on the An Phoblacht website after the poll, party chairman Declan Kearney referred to the Republic as the “Southern State” to which Irish Times columnist Kathy Sheridan responded in terms echoed by other people on social media: “If the objective really is change, an easy place for Sinn Féin to start would be with language. We do not refer to our Republic as ‘the Southern State’ or ‘the Free State’. The name is Ireland.”

So much for the GFA. They don’t believe a word of it.

 

[Purple]

@Purple I was brought up to believe that we are all sinners
I think you are being a bit harsh on Wolfie but you are dead right on SF/IRA. I wasn’t actually aware that this was their official policy but I Googled this.

So much for the GFA. They don’t believe a word of it.

Wolfie, for all his linguistic ability, toes his Party's line.
Deep down they refuse to recognise the legitimacy of this country, a country they want to ruin, sorry, run.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I re-read this line from our Constitution.

“The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland,”

The interesting thing about this sentence is that it is written in English. If it were merely a translation of the Gaelic version "Éire" would be out of place. This suggests to me that "Éire" is a valid name in English but also with the alternative "Ireland" - the key word being "or".
So the Brits were not a million miles away in calling us Eire though the absence of the accent is unforgiveable.

 

[Purple]

The interesting thing about this sentence is that it is written in English. This suggests to me that "Éire" is a valid name in English but also with the alternative "Ireland" - key word being "or".

To me the wording is clear, and the comma is key. If you are speaking in Irish the name of the country is Éire. If you are speaking in English the name of the country is Ireland. If you were talking about Germany in English you wouldn't call it Deutschland.

So the Brits were not a million miles away in calling us Eire though the absence of the accent is unforgiveable.

They are calling it 'Air-ey' in order to distinguish it from Ireland. That is unforgivable.

 

[WolfeTone]

So you still won't use the name of this country, as per your Party policy.

Im not a member of any party, anymore than you a FG'er.

The official name of the State is Ireland. The official name of the country is Ireland. The official descript of the country is the Republic of Ireland.

Its not me who has difficulty accepting the official descript of the country to be 'The Republic of Ireland', its you.

'The Republic of Ireland' is the name of a football team

I wasn’t actually aware that this was their official policy

I think you will find that that is the Irish Times interpretation of their official policy. Either that, or you have uncovered a deep dark secret within SF - the end of Ireland as a partitioned state!
This exclusive will surely reverberate around the world once it is revealed to the public?

Deep down they refuse to recognise the legitimacy of this country, a country they want to ruin

Speaking for myself, I accept the legitimacy of this state but I refuse to agree that this 26 county state, Ireland, RoI , Éire, call it what you will, is what the vast majority of the people living on this island ever wanted. That is my belief, my entitlement to hold that belief whether you or anyone agrees with it. You have your own beliefs.

The interesting thing about this sentence is that it is written in English.

An Stát

Airteagal 4

Éire is ainm don stát nó, sa sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland

I think you may have hit upon an inconvenient truth Duke!

The name of State is Éire, both in the Irish language version of the constitution and the English language version. Of course, the English translation of Éire is Ireland, but Éire is the official name.

Can we now have some respect from those who find SF description of the 26 counties so offensive? Can they live up to their own demands in wanting the country to be called by its official name and call it Éire?

 

[Purple]

Im not a member of any party, anymore than you a FG'er.

Really? Your ideologically identical twins, you support all their policies and defend all their actions.

The official name of the State is Ireland. The official name of the country is Ireland. The official descript of the country is the Republic of Ireland.

Correct.

Its not me who has difficulty accepting the official descript of the country to be 'The Republic of Ireland', its you.

I have no difficulty with Ireland being described as The Republic of Ireland. It is a republic.

I think you will find that that is the Irish Times interpretation of their official policy. Either that, or you have uncovered a deep dark secret within SF - the end of Ireland as a partitioned state!
This exclusive will surely reverberate around the world once it is revealed to the public?

I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

Speaking for myself, I accept the legitimacy of this state but I refuse to agree that this 26 county state, Ireland, RoI , Éire, call it what you will, is what the vast majority of the people living on this island ever wanted. That is my belief, my entitlement to hold that belief whether you or anyone agrees with it. You have your own beliefs.

You are absolutely entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but not your own facts. The fact is that the name of this country is Ireland. It is not called The Republic of Ireland. Calling is that is factually incorrect, just as calling is 'The Soyth', 'Doyne there', 'The 26 Coynties' or 'Air-ey' is equally incorrect.

An Stát

Airteagal 4

Éire is ainm don stát nó, sa sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland

I think you may have hit upon an inconvenient truth Duke!

The name of State is Éire, both in the Irish language version of the constitution and the English language version. Of course, the English translation of Éire is Ireland, but Éire is the official name.

No, the Constitution is quite clear that the name of the Country is Éire in Irish and Ireland in English.

Can we now have some respect from those who find SF description of the 26 counties so offensive?

No.

Can they live up to their own demands in wanting the country to be called by its official name and call it Éire?

... or Ireland if they are speaking in English. Absolutely.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I think you will find that that is the Irish Times interpretation of their official policy. Either that, or you have uncovered a deep dark secret within SF - the end of Ireland as a partitioned state!
This exclusive will surely reverberate around the world once it is revealed to the public?

As you have observed I have been generally holding your hand in this rabbit hole and giving you lots of "likes". You have been speaking a lot of common sense which I know is a new experience for you and I wanted to give you encouragement.

But I have to pull you up on this dismissal of the IT article. Maybe my use of "official" line was incorrect but I don't think you can argue with the broad thrust of that article even if it was written from an anti SF bias. What struck me was that I was unaware that the very topic we are discussing got so close to the bone of the SF/IRA credo. And I am close to this space in many ways. What chance have millennials got to recognise that SF are essentially a subversive party who respect neither our Constitution nor the GFA.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

repeated use of a description does not mean it becomes a noun, let alone a formal title. Call me what you like for as long as you like, my name is still Leo.

Coming back to you on the point of grammar. The description is a qualified noun. The noun is "Republic" and it is qualified by the preposition "of" in conjunction with the proper noun (or name if you like) of "Ireland". Many descriptions are qualified nouns e.g. The White House. But a description can be a stand alone noun such as the "darkness".

As another example consider the Central Statistics Office or "The office in charge of central statistics". Both are qualified nouns though the former has been officially "baptised" with its name, the latter is not a name.
The Republic of Ireland is not a name, I never said it was, but it is an official description used as a noun on numerous occasions in our legislation.

 

[Leo]

Coming back to you on the point of grammar. The description is a qualified noun. The noun is "Republic" and it is qualified by the preposition "of" in conjunction with the pronoun (or name if you like) of "Ireland".

Prepositions in and of themselves are not qualifiers. 'Ireland' or other names are not pronouns, they're proper nouns.