President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[Purple]

More remarkable was how the entire media bought the spin and ran with it. Assuming they possess the most basic level of intelligence and street smarts, I can only conclude that a chilling compliance has already descended on the journalistic establishment, and they are terrified of offending the soon-to-be ruling junta.

I an genuinely worried about that. If the Shinners were just a populist reincarnation of Jack Lynch's FF I'd be concerned for the economy but I do not consider them to be a constitutional political party with a genuine commitment to democracy. They are another manifestation of that anti-centralist swing to populism that's given us Orbán in Hungary, Duda in Poland, Trump in America and Johnson in the UK. The one thing they all have in common is a disregard for democracy, the separation of powers and the rule of law.
I think the people who vote for them either share their disregard for those structures, principles and institutions or are too stupid to understand what they are unleashing on us all.

 

[Baby boomer]

I an genuinely worried about that.

So am I.

If the Shinners were just a populist reincarnation of Jack Lynch's FF I'd be concerned for the economy but I do not consider them to be a constitutional political party with a genuine commitment to democracy.

They are trying hard to look like like a normal constitutional party. Usually that involves sending Eoin O Broin out to defend the indefensible whenever the mask slips. (Cullinane up-the-Ra, Kingsmills bread stunt, Storey funeral, etc, the mask slips quite a bit!) Does the poor lad never tire of it?

They are another manifestation of that anti-centralist swing to populism that's given us Orbán in Hungary, Duda in Poland, Trump in America and Johnson in the UK. The one thing they all have in common is a disregard for democracy, the separation of powers and the rule of law.

Hard to disagree.

I think the people who vote for them either share their disregard for those structures, principles and institutions or are too stupid to understand what they are unleashing on us all.

A bit of both. The Shinners are masters at cultivating a them-and-us mentality. Democracy, separation of powers and rule of law are presented as the preserve of "them" and if we are against "them" then, well, such niceties are dispensable to ensure the well-being of "us". Sure, what could go wrong?

 

[Purple]

Sure, what could go wrong?

Germany, Rwanda, Serbia... yep, always works out just fine.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Let's go to the horses mouth. I don't have the official policy doctrine to hand (not being a member and all that) but I attach a link to a SF policy document entitled "Inclusion and Reconciliation in a New Ireland".

Inclusion and Reconcilliation

Surely such a document, some 19pages long, will shed light on the true attitude of SF to the name of this country? In some 19 pages I searched for the titles:

Ireland - 68 times
Republic of Ireland - 0
Down South - 0
Southern State - 1
26 Counties - 0
The 26 - 0
Northern Ireland - 1
north of Ireland - 0
northern state - 0
the 6 - 0
the six counties - 0
orange state - 0
British Statelet - 0

I have to say, for an official policy document it does not really chime with the IT perspective.

As you know, you had me initially fooled by this. In fact that document underscores @Purple 's point about how SF refer to our country and how sensitive it is to their credo.
The 1 reference to Northern Ireland was in fact a quotation from the GFA.
There was 1 reference to the "northern state" on page 14.
But the dog that didn't bark was that, despite 68 references to the 32 county Ireland, there was not 1 reference to our country/state/jurisdiction. As it was constructed they avoided having to give this country a name/description - that was some feat in linguistic juggling. Can there be any doubt that the West Belfast mullahs went through this document with a fine tooth comb to ensure it was compliant with the SF/IRA Quran?

And now we see you peddle a false narrative on the Special Criminal Court as pointed out by @Baby boomer. Far from being in favour of this court which was set up partly to protect us from SF/IRA and their fellow travellers they reject this version but do not rule out their own version in the future.

 

[WolfeTone]

The reality was that the motion rejected the Special Criminal Court as currently constituted

As yes indeed, you are correct. Safe to say it is a political distraction to disarm their opponents during the election hustings.
No doubt the heavy hitters of yore like McDowell will be wheeled out to remind the public of the ensuing armageddon of a SF led government.

Of course, what all this means is that there is at least one political party uncomfortable with the practice of non-jury courts in a supposed civilised democratic society.
For the record I'm totally opposed to such courts and opposed to the SF about-turn.

 

[Purple]

Of course, what all this means is that there is at least one political party uncomfortable with the practice of non-jury courts

Especially when they are used to put their mates, an indeed their bosses, in prison.

 

[WolfeTone]

As you know, you had me initially fooled by this

I wasn't intending to try fool you. I didn't read the document just did the search.
But I will concede that it is obvious that SF when talking about Ireland are talking in an All Ireland context. Some people take offence to that. Personally I think it chimes with their objectives and is totally compatible with the constitution.
It is the thinking along partitionist lines that is offensive to me.

 

[WolfeTone]

Especially when they are used to put their mates, an indeed their bosses, in prison.

Absolutely, as you know that prior to 1998 the legality of 26 county State, and as such it's authority, was disputed.

 

[Purple]

Absolutely, as you know that prior to 1998 the legality of 26 county State, and as such it's authority, was disputed.

What?

 

[WolfeTone]

What?

The legality of the 26 county state was disputed by SF and the IRA, prior to 1998.

 

[Purple]

The legality of the 26 county state was disputed by SF and the IRA, prior to 1998.

Do you mean Ireland?

 

[cremeegg]

No, that was the spin. The reality was that the motion rejected the Special Criminal Court as currently constituted while (somewhat weaselly) suggesting that there might, someday, in some vague undefined circumstances, possibly be some sort of a role for non-jury courts. (Perhaps when SF take over and there's a few extra-judicial matters that need to be entrusted to a safe pair of hands.)

Not quite the same thing.

More remarkable was how the entire media bought the spin and ran with it. Assuming they possess the most basic level of intelligence and street smarts, I can only conclude that a chilling compliance has already descended on the journalistic establishment, and they are terrified of offending the soon-to-be ruling junta.

I don't know what media you consume, but the only thing I read about it was Michael McDowell in the IT and he certainly didn't accept the SF spin.

Actually I couldn't understand what he was banging on about, it struck me as slagging off SF for the sake of it.

Your outline above makes much more sense. I have no idea wether your view is reasonable or not, I'm not that interested, but you make a straight forward intelligible point which is more than McDowell managed.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I wasn't intending to try fool you. I didn't read the document just did the search.
But I will concede that it is obvious that SF when talking about Ireland are talking in an All Ireland context.

I was just noting that a document which mentioned "Ireland" (the 32 county version) 68 times and "partition" 12 times studiously avoided having to mention our country/state/jurisdiction at all. It's as if to call our country "Ireland" or even the "Republic of Ireland" would grate with them the way using the "N" word grates with us all. It is clear that they respect neither our Constitution nor the 1948 Act. This was official policy pre the GFA and in substance nothing has changed since then. Another taboo seems to be the War of Independence, which they call the Tan War in that link you provided.
I did a similar exercise on the Belfast Agreement. Lots and lots and lots of references to Northern Ireland. Quite a few references to Ireland, the 32 county version. Ireland the 26 county version appears in references to the Government of Ireland. No reference to the Republic of Ireland. 1 reference to the South and 1 reference to the jurisdiction (of the Government of Ireland).

 

[WolfeTone]

It is clear that they respect neither our Constitution

I'm not seeing this at all. Referencing Ireland in a 32 county is wholly and absolutely consistent with the Constitution.
In fact the Constitution is silent on this 26 county thingy save to describe it as a jurisdiction, and not the State.
Interestingly is has this to say about the two jurisdictions

- "Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island."

It is clear, the Constitution does not define 'The State' as the 26 Counties and it certainly does not limit itself to the 26 Counties.
The Constitution permits the establishment of institutions on a shared All Ireland basis with the right to exercise powers.
Is it fair to say that it is the function of the State to administer these shared institutions?
I would say so.
So 'The State' is Ireland. All Ireland. It has absolute jurisdiction in the 26 counties and shared jurisdiction in those institutions established with executive powers.

Sinn Féin are absolutely right to talk of Ireland on an All Ireland basis. Those who talk of Ireland in the sense of 26 counties alone are betraying the Constitution and are of the old partitionist mindset. They need to move aside, their day is done and cooked.

"Republic of Ireland" and "Northern Ireland" are just two football teams.

 

[Purple]

Sinn Féin are absolutely right to talk of Ireland on an All Ireland basis. Those who talk of Ireland in the sense of 26 counties alone are betraying the Constitution and are of the old partitionist mindset. They need to move aside, their day is done and cooked

Wow, that blind adherence to Shinner dogma is frightening.
Bottom line; The Shinners won't use the name of this country and, despite not being a member of the party, you are, as usual, 100% in agreement with them.

 

[WolfeTone]

The Shinners won't use the name of this country and, despite not being a member of the party, you are, as usual, 100% in agreement with them.

They use the name of the country ALL the time. They use it in the context of a 32 county, islands and seas, which is wholly compatible with the Constitution of this country.
One which I am in total agreement.
It's the attempted limitations of the partitionists to fix the boundary of the nation to some 26 county jurisdiction that is a betrayal of the country and the Constitution.

despite not being a member of the party, you are, as usual, 100% in agreement with them.

Is there a reason why I cannot be in agreement with them? After all, it's the reason I offer my vote to them. That makes sense does it not?
But I don't agree with them on everything if that is what you are inferring?

For the record I'm totally opposed to such courts and opposed to the SF about-turn.

How to square that circle of "as usual, 100% agreement"?

 

[Purple]

They use the name of the country ALL the time. They use it in the context of a 32 county, islands and seas, which is wholly compatible with the Constitution of this country.
One which I am in total agreement.
It's the attempted limitations of the partitionists to fix the boundary of the nation to some 26 county jurisdiction that is a betrayal of the country and the Constitution.

Now you seem to be denying the existence of this country. It's worryingly Orwellian. I hope it's not a sign of things to come when you guys get into power.

Is there a reason why I cannot be in agreement with them? After all, it's the reason I offer my vote to them. That makes sense does it not?
But I don't agree with them on everything if that is what you are inferring?

I haven't seen you disagree with them.

How to square that circle of "as usual, 100% agreement"?

More double speak; they are still 100% opposed to the Special Criminal Court, a court that was set up in the face of their intimidation, terrorism and murder.

 

[WolfeTone]

Now you seem to be denying the existence of this country. It's worryingly Orwellian. I hope it's not a sign of things to come when you guys get into power.

I could same the same about you. You are fixated on the 26 counties as being 'the country'. It is not, it is a jurisdiction, one of two, as recognised by the Constitution and as being as such, and described as the "Republic of Ireland" in the 1948 Act.
The Republic of Ireland has limited jurisdiction to the 26 county state.
The Constitution has no such limitations. It is clear, the Constitution facilitates the jurisdiction of the State beyond the 26 county 'Republic of Ireland'.

When you are talking about the limitations of the 26 county jurisdiction you should use its correct, official and legislated descript - The Republic of Ireland.
When talking about Ireland, you are talking about 'The State' as set out in the Constitution which goes way beyond the partitionists mindset.

 

[Purple]

I could same the same about you. You are fixated on the 26 counties as being 'the country'. It is not, it is a jurisdiction, one of two, as recognised by the Constitution and as being as such, and described as the "Republic of Ireland" in the 1948 Act.
The Republic of Ireland has limited jurisdiction to the 26 county state.
The Constitution has no such limitations. It is clear, the Constitution facilitates the jurisdiction of the State beyond the 26 county 'Republic of Ireland'.

When you are talking about the limitations of the 26 county jurisdiction you should use its correct, official and legislated descript - The Republic of Ireland.
When talking about Ireland, you are talking about 'The State' as set out in the Constitution which goes way beyond the partitionists mindset.

Okay, that's all I need to know. Not only will you and your Party not use the name of this country, you deny it even exists.
No wonder it was okay until recently to murder members of it's police, armed forces and judiciary. It's now politically expedient not to do so but if this isn't a country then there's no real moral issue with it.

You guys want to run a country that you don't consider to exist.

Why were you posting links to Shinner press releases earlier in this thread claiming that they showed SF referencing this country by its correct name? Is it only now that you realise that your party won't use the correct name that you have realised that it shouldn't be used? That also seems very Orwellian.

 

[WolfeTone]

Not only will you and your Party not use the name of this country, you deny it even exists.

Purple, you are blathering. The name of the country is Ireland. The name of the State is Ireland.

I use it all the time, as do SF.

You are in denial at what the Constitution says. It is clear it identifies two jurisdictions. It is clear it names 'The State' as 'Ireland' . It is clear it wants to unite the two jurisdictions - aka the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

It is clear that the Constitution extends the jurisdiction of the State beyond the limitations of the 26 county state, identified as a jurisdiction by the Constitution and described, officially through legislation, as the Republic of Ireland.
Your descript of Ireland applying to the 26 counties is a misinterpretation of what the Constitution says.
When referring to the 26 county jurisdiction, the 26 county state, you should use the official descript of Republic of Ireland.

After all, this is what the President of Ireland took offence too. He is the President of Ireland, a nation of people that extends to the entire island, its islands and seas. He is not the President of a limited 26 county jurisdiction.

If you have respect for our Constitution and for Ireland, please use the correct titles - RoI for 26 counties, and Ireland for the entire nation of people born on the island of Ireland.