President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[Duke of Marmalade]

Wikipedia is someone's opinion.

The Wiki quote was stated as facts. They stated that:
The Constitution states that the “name” is Ireland.
The 1948 Act states that the “description” is Republic of Ireland.
These are not opinions. The further elaboration was in the nature of an opinion but was not central to my point.
Of course Wiki can get its facts wrong. Are you claiming that either of these stated facts is wrong?
I am discussing here the official position in our legislature. Of course I agree with you on the more general colloquial use of the terms “name” and “description“.

 

[Purple]

The Wiki quote was stated as facts. They stated that:
The Constitution states that the “name” is Ireland.
The 1948 Act states that the “description” is Republic of Ireland.
These are not opinions. The further elaboration was in the nature of an opinion but was not central to my point.
Of course Wiki can get its facts wrong. Are you claiming that either of these stated facts is wrong?
I am discussing here the official position in our legislature. Of course I agree with you on the more general colloquial use of the terms “name” and “description“.

So we agree that the name of the country is Ireland. When in conversation one wishes to distinguish this country from Northern Ireland it is easy to use the correct names; Ireland and Northern Ireland. Quite clear, and correct.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So we agree that the name of the country is Ireland. When in conversation one wishes to distinguish this country from Northern Ireland it is easy to use the correct names; Ireland and Northern Ireland. Quite clear, and correct.

Sorry, but this rabbit hole did not originate in a discussion about conversation. @PMU drew our attention to the CSO describing its survey as about "trips taken in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland". Not only is this officially correct but IMHO your choice of "trips taken in Ireland or Northern Ireland" would be both officially incorrect and confusing.
@PMU 's main point was that if the CSO can use RoI then why beat up Jefferson for doing so. I hope I have explained the error of this argument. I think you agree that Donaldson was wrong since he clearly was not referring to the RoI soccer team, which according to yourself is the correct context for the term. I also believe that he was being deliberately provocative but again that is IMHO.
As for conversation that is a fairly broad church; personally I refer to the 26 counties and the 6 counties.

 

[Purple]

Not only is this officially correct but IMHO your choice of "trips taken in Ireland or Northern Ireland" would be both officially incorrect and confusing.

It's not officially correct. When naming something you use it's name, not it's description. If there is a lion standing beside a tiger and you want to talk about the former with someone who doesn't know the difference between the two then you'd talk about the large cat with the big mane and the other big cat with the stripes. You'd probably then tell your intellectually challenged companion that one was called a lion and the other a tiger.

You'd then continue the conversation using their respective names.

The 26 Counties isn't a place. It's a vague description of a place. The place in question is called Ireland.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It's not officially correct. When naming something you use it's name, not it's description. If there is a lion standing beside a tiger and you want to talk about the former with someone who doesn't know the difference between the two then you'd talk about the large cat with the big mane and the other big cat with the stripes. You'd probably then tell your intellectually challenged companion that one was called a lion and the other a tiger.

You'd then continue the conversation using their respective names.

I can see there will be no budge.
You stated quite clearly in an earlier post that "Ireland" is the description of our state. You are sticking to this so I take it that your answer (not yet provided) to an earlier question is that you believe that Wiki and @Baby boomer have mistakenly referenced the 1948 Act.
So just to be clear and following your "like" for @PMU 's post, do you believe that the CSO were in error in using "Republic of Ireland" in describing their survey and, more importantly, in making this "error" they clear Donaldson of any criticism for making his error*? In fact, in your view they were both referring to the RoI soccer team.

The 26 Counties isn't a place. It's a vague description of a place. The place in question is called Ireland.

I was giving examples of other uses in conversation. Wiki also cites The Free State. Hitler I believe called it a Cabbage Patch. One hears references to the Black North.
.
* The one thing that we do agree on, I think, is that Donaldson was certainly in error, though for different reasons. To me in referring to our president we are definitely in the constitutional space and the "name" in that space is very clearly Ireland. You take a less constitutional view and simply observe that he was referring to our soccer team, but let's not spoil this point of agreement.

 

[Leo]

For the avoidance of doubt, the full text of the 1948 Act is here.

There is no reference to any amendment to Article 4 of the constitution:

The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

It's standard practice when changing the name of a state to officially notify the UN, just as when Macedonia added the 'North' in resolution of the long-running dispute with Greece. The official name in UN records remains "Ireland".

 

[Purple]

I was giving examples of other uses in conversation. Wiki also cites The Free State. Hitler I believe called it a Cabbage Patch. One hears references to the Black North

All equally as invalid as The Republic of Ireland and the 26 Counties.

I'm not overly upset by the CSO using a description of this country rather than the name of this country, though I would expect a State Body to use the correct name. I'm just pointing out that this country is Ireland, not 'Doyn Soyth' or 'The Republic' or 'The Republic of Ireland' or 'The 26 Counties' or 'This Jyry-stychion' or 'A Cabbage Patch' or 'Eiry' or anything else.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

All equally as invalid as The Republic of Ireland and the 26 Counties.

I'm not overly upset by the CSO using a description of this country rather than the name of this country, though I would expect a State Body to use the correct name. I'm just pointing out that this country is Ireland, not 'Doyn Soyth' or 'The Republic' or 'The Republic of Ireland' or 'The 26 Counties' or 'This Jyry-stychion' or 'A Cabbage Patch' or 'Eiry' or anything else.

Ok, I want to close this off. Hopefully, the following summarises your position.

"The CSO were incorrect in using RoI but it does not upset you but you do agree that it 'excuses' Donaldson for making what in your view was the same error."

 

[Purple]

Ok, I want to close this off. Hopefully, the following summarises your position.

"The CSO were incorrect is using RoI but it does not upset you but you do agree that it 'excuses' Donaldson for making what in your view was the same error."

Yes, because I agree with you that Donaldson did so knowingly whereas I believe that the CSE were just incorrect due to ignorance/oversight.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

For the avoidance of doubt, the full text of the 1948 Act is here.

And right up front it states:

AN ACT TO REPEAL THE EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY (EXTERNAL RELATIONS) ACT, 1936 , TO DECLARE THAT THE DESCRIPTION OF THE STATE SHALL BE THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND

My understanding is that legislation cannot change the Constitution without a referendum, so the official name of the country remains "Ireland".
What is at stake in this rabbit hole is when is it appropriate to use the "description" which the 1948 Act decrees is the "The Republic of Ireland".
@Purple in #337 outright rejects the legitimacy of the 1948 Act in describing the state as anything other than Ireland and that the role of the RoI caption is reserved for such things as the national soccer team. So for avoidance of going down a tributary to this rabbit hole can we accept for sake of argument that the 1948 Act is a legitimate piece of our legislation.
Getting to the nub of the issue as @PMU has argued, does the use by the CSO of RoI neutralise any criticisms of Donaldson for doing so? We all are in agreement that Donaldson was wrong and there seems to be agreement that he was knowingly wrong. So the argument boils down to were the CSO wrong to use RoI in their context? For absolute clarity should the CSO have described their survey as concerning "trips taken in Ireland and Northern Ireland"? What is your view on these latter points?

 

[Purple]

For absolute clarity should the CSO have described their survey as concerning "trips taken in Ireland and Northern Ireland"?

Yes.
The official description of something is not the same as the name of something. When referring to something it is normal to do so using its name.
My friends refer to me by my name. My ex wife used a non-official description.

 

[WolfeTone]

What hope for a UI if we cannot even get past the name of the current country?

So the argument boils down to were the CSO wrong to use RoI in their context?

No, I don't believe so.

The description of 'The Republic of Ireland' was to replace the previous description of 'Saorstát Éireann'.

Article 2 of the Constitution recognises Ireland as the entire territory of the island, its islands and seas.
The 26 county state is also called Ireland but for descriptive purposes of distinguishing it from the Ireland under another jurisdiction it can be described as 'The Republic of Ireland'.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Yes.
The official description of something is not the same as the name of something. When referring to something it is normal to do so using its name.
My friends refer to me by my name. My ex wife used a non-official description.

I know where you stand, your view is that the 1948 Act was anticipating the country's soccer team. I would be interested in @Leo 's view.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

What hope for a UI if we cannot even get past the name of the current country?



No, I don't believe so.

The description of 'The Republic of Ireland' was to replace the previous description of 'Saorstát Éireann'.

Article 2 of the Constitution recognises Ireland as the entire territory of the island, its islands and seas.
The 26 county state is also called Ireland but for descriptive purposes of distinguishing it from the Ireland under another jurisdiction it can be described as 'The Republic of Ireland'.

I agree with you though possibly the referendum subsequent to the GFA has changed that.

 

[WolfeTone]

I agree with you though possibly the referendum subsequent to the GFA has changed that.

It has changed the claim by the Irish State to have legal jurisdiction over NI for sure, but it still identifies the territory of Ireland to be the entire island its island and seas.

A Bertie master-stoke, all things to all people.

 

[Purple]

I know where you stand, your view is that the 1948 Act was anticipating the country's soccer team.

No, it was describing the country. The name remained the same.

 

[Purple]

What hope for a UI if we cannot even get past the name of the current country?

Interestingly Mary Lou won't use the name of this country. When she's runnin' things will she change the name to 'The 26 Counties', 'This Jurisdiction' or 'Doyn Soyth'? It's appalling that she want's to run a country that she won't even use the name of.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

No, it was describing the country. The name remained the same.

Do a search for “Republic of Ireland” in irishstatutebook.ie. You will get numerous hits of which the following is a recent example:

The sector comprises: English Language Schools in the Republic of Ireland which provide education and training in English as a foreign language and other English language related training courses.

Are you still sticking by your claim that the CSO were wrong? Is the Irish Statute Book riddled with this error?

 

[Purple]

Do a search for “Republic of Ireland” in irishstatutebook.ie. You will get numerous hits of which the following is a recent example:

Are you still sticking by your claim that the CSO were wrong? Is the Irish Statute Book riddled with this error?

I'm just going by the Constitution of this Jyr-e-stiction.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I'm just going by the Constitution of this Jyr-e-stiction.

I take it that you still agree with @PMU 's central point that the CSO usage minimises any criticism that can be levied at Donaldson. I also note that you believe that multiple tracts of our legislation are ignoring the Constitution.

By way of summary, I hope I have persuaded most other listeners that:
(1) Donaldson was knowingly and provocatively calling Michael D the incorrect title of the President of the Republic of Ireland just as he refuses to call our Taoiseach and Tanaiste by their official titles.
(2) The CSO are both in letter and in spirit absolutely correct to describe their survey as covering "trips in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" rather than saying "trips in Ireland and Northern Ireland".
(3) For most people then, the CSO usage should not in any way minimise criticism of Donaldson in this context. Though I accept there will be a minority like @Purple and @PMU who believe that it does so minimise that criticism.