Neutrality

[tecate]

Of course it's relevant because in the big ideological debates russia is a loser, its spent almost a century on the dead end of communism and another lost century .

It's a total irrelevance. Yes, communism failed and the current Russia has nothing to do with communism.

Now its regressed back to the ideology it had before communism, imperialism. But it doesn't have the economic and cultural power to succeed because its not the US or China

This is more totally irrelevant (and inaccurate) nonsense. The clown that the yanks installed threatened to bring in nukes and NATO. Double standards in three words right here -> Cuban missile crisis

Russia had no interest in taking territory - it had every interest in ensuring that Ukraine didn't turn into having an enemy (the U.S.) deploy weapons right on its doorstep - like it promised a gazillion times it wouldn't ...when the cold war ended...and every time in between. But they have no word.

The only thing it has to sell to the world is natural resources but now its cut off its biggest customer for natural gas , Europe, and China is not jumping in either to take up that gap.

The "only" thing? It's beyond immense in size. It doesn't need more territory - that's not a thing. And the resources it has will last forever and a day. On the claim that China isn't buying Russian oil/gas, etc...you have a source for that? Isn't a new pipeline being built from Russia to China?

What the Europeans did was the most moronic thing I've ever seen. They cut down on Russian oil/gas - then the price shot up and Russia sold it elsewhere anyway. In fact, isn't it the same oil that's coming in ...but now it goes through places like India? It's bonkers stuff....particularly where the Germans are concerned. They've screwed themselves.
They went to great lengths many years ago to secure that gas deal with Russia. The infrastructure was put in place. Then the yanks blew the pipeline up - and there was ZERO honesty about that - and there remains zero honesty (which is very relevant given your claims about lies). Now the Germans tell us that some Ukrainian team did it? Completely unbelievable garbage.

Now Saudi Arabia is about to increase production and collapse the oil price like it did in 2020. With, buddies like China and Saudi Arabia who needs enemies

Source? And so what if it does? You think oil producers haven't been able to survive in leaner years? It means nothing in terms of the outcome to this war. And here's another potential outcome for you entirely. How about Trump wins the election, winds the Ukraine thing down, and then appeases his zionist friends with a hot war with Iran. And if that happens, Europe is screwed double. They'll be begging Putin for oil/gas.
And Macron knows. It wasn't the killing of 40,000 civilians that motivated him of course, but $....he sees the danger....if the yanks and the zionists engage full on with Iran, there isn't a barrel of oil going to leave through the Persian Gulf. So he spoke out about Israel with Mileikowsky the war criminal being none too pleased.

 

[Purple]

A matter for him and the Russian people. By and large, he's got their support.

That's the funniest thing I've read in ages.

if the yanks and the zionists engage full on with Iran, there isn't a barrel of oil going to leave through the Persian Gulf.

If you believe that Israel has the right to exist then you're a Zionist. That means that hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of people around the world are Zionists. Most don't support the actions of Netanyahu's government but they are still Zionists. In fact there are protesters outside his house on a constant basis (Zionist protesters), protesting against the way in which he is conducting the war against Gaza and it's Government and against Hezbollah. How many protesters do you think there are in Gaza and Lebanon protesting against Hamas and Hezbollah?

 

[tecate]

That's the funniest thing I've read in ages.

Wonderful to hear that the truth has that effect on you.

Most don't support the actions of Netanyahu's government but they are still Zionists. In fact there are protesters outside his house on a constant basis (Zionist protesters), protesting against the way in which he is conducting the war against Gaza and it's Government and against Hezbollah.

Well that makes sense because if you zoom out, his actions over the past 12 months have likely put the jewish state at risk. Maybe not today, tomorrow or the next few years but history shows that all these types of actions come back to bite you.

How many protesters do you think there are in Gaza and Lebanon protesting against Hamas and Hezbollah?

Yeah, that's a justification for the genocide and ethnic cleansing. If you bomb the humanity out of people they will become the animals that you tried to claim they were at the outset and its a long road.

 

[Purple]

Wonderful to hear that the truth has that effect on you.

No, the truth doesn't have that effect on me at all. Claiming that the people of Russia have any say in how the imperialistic totalitarian dictator who runs the country behaves is just hilarious.

Well that makes sense because if you zoom out, his actions over the past 12 months have likely put the jewish state at risk. Maybe not today, tomorrow or the next few years but history shows that all these types of actions come back to bite you.

I agree with you, much the same as the actions of Hamas, the Taliban of the region, have come back to bite them.

Yeah, that's a justification for the genocide and ethnic cleansing. If you bomb the humanity out of people they will become the animals that you tried to claim they were at the outset and its a long road.

Wow, victim blaming at it's finest.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bitcoin's more extreme promoters have tended to cheerlead political forces that try to undermine the West. Finding that they approve of Putin is not a surprise.

@joe sod @Purple WARNING you will never get the better of LWT

 

[Purple]

@joe sod @Purple WARNING you will never get the better of LWT

I like, on occasion, to argue with the ill informed. It reminds me of talking to teenaged socialists (and the teenaged socialists like Boyd Barrett and Micky D who are so narcissistic that they and their opinions never matured).

 

[tecate]

No, the truth doesn't have that effect on me at all. Claiming that the people of Russia have any say in how the imperialistic totalitarian dictator who runs the country behaves is just hilarious.

I said that by and large he has their support. That matters whether or not they have a "say" or to what extent they have a "say." The point stands.

I agree with you, much the same as the actions of Hamas, the Taliban of the region, have come back to bite them.

By them you mean every man, woman and child and that they're fully deserving of the genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Wow, victim blaming at it's finest.

Yes, of course. That's what the world sees you as now. How much social capital do you think you've destroyed these past 12 months? It will take decades to shore that up.

@joe sod @Purple WARNING you will never get the better of LWT

You telling porkies again Duke? You've very much gotten the LW ->



I really had nowhere to go in terms of a response to this. (I suppose I could have mustered something but I have some modicum of humanity, i'm not a zionist).

 

[joe sod]

I like, on occasion, to argue with the ill informed. It reminds me of talking to teenaged socialists (and the teenaged socialists like Boyd Barrett and Micky D who are so narcissistic that they and their opinions never matured).

Also russian disinformation and lies needs to be countered and answered to, not ignored as some suggest. It needs to be shown up and ridiculed at every opportunity.
The whole Russian propaganda modus operandi is to keep repeating lies again and again until enough people actually believe it.

 

[tecate]

Also russian disinformation and lies needs to be countered and answered to, not ignored as some suggest. It needs to be shown up and ridiculed at every opportunity.

I think that ALL disinformation and lies need to be countered. The issue with your approach in this regard is the idea that only one party to a conflict tells lies or engages in disinformation. That's just not how these types of conflicts work.

The other issue is that in your 'countering' on this thread, two of your disinformation claims have turned out to be the truth - as verified by the citations provided.

 

[Firefly]

I could ask you to reel off whatever these lies were (and then go into the ins and outs of whether he actually was lying - because on the basis of your previous posts I won't be taking your word for it). But should we go there at all? Should we not consider the fact that you led with that but you don't say a word about the lies being told by the other side? I'll give you one...Macron and Merkel negotiated Minsk 2 with Putin - a peace accord. Merkel has since confirmed that she, Macron and the rest of them had no notion of honoring that deal. She said it was signed to "buy time" - so war was what she was aiming for. Minsk 2 was a lie of epic proportions.

That's one...you say Putin "is a liar" and you open up pandora's box because there are plenty of liars out there. That old phrase, "the first casualty in war is the truth" didn't specify one particular side telling porkies - and with good reason. But of course this is what the euro-propagandists and yanks are feeding you.

And you say you wouldn't listen to him because he tells lies. They all tell lies - and the best way to figure out what the truth is, is to take in a sampling of what both of them are spouting ...but you can't do that in Europe because they're afraid what you might learn from getting their version of events. Imagine - the ones that go on the most about freedom of press, etc. are the ones that are doing the censoring.


Not in any way accurate. For 2 years straight, practically nobody on here has said anything other than Putin/the Ruskies are the devil. All I'm saying is that that's not accurate. That doesn't mean I like the guy. At that level, they'd all eat you without salt. He has said himself in that interview (had you bothered to watch it - instead of foaming from the mouth) that he's not your friend - he will act in Russia's interests - and if you compare his Russia with Yeltsin's Russia, he's brought them on (as much as you'll hate to admit that).


You're doing it again. So what? You're referring to cold war iconography when they were locked in an ideological battle with the yanks. Of course there was propaganda....on both sides. Of course there's propaganda right now ....on both sides.



You want me to comment on one abhorrent item in a war? It doesn't exist in isolation - but once again, I'll point out to you that you're not acknowledging the filth that's ongoing on both sides. And as regards child abductions (via adoption), you don't have to even get past Ireland for that. And in a war context, Operation Babylift from the masters of propaganda. Or Operation Peter Pan courtesy of the CIA. But that happened donkey's years ago they wouldnt do that now? I'm afraid they would. Now check out the manner in which that CNN article is written and compare it with the emotive stuff that has gotten you riled up. I'm not saying any of it is right but I AM stressing the importance of having a balanced view about whats going on and recognizing when you're being manipulated.

So you say those kids were "abducted." How many abductions do you think have been going on on the streets of Ukraine's towns/cities over the past many months - as that clown's goons lift ordinary joes off the street who do NOT want to participate in that proxy war, dragging them into vans. How many times have you seen that in the media that you are accessing in relation to this war? Probably not once - yet it's happening every day. I cited it above and I was astonished to find that the NYT had covered it - the thing is so obvious that even they covered it. How many people have been shot at the border trying to escape Zelensky's thugs?

The amount of WhatAboutery here is impressive. It does beg the question from me tecate:


Are you a Russian bot?

 

[tecate]

The amount of WhatAboutery here is impressive. It does beg the question from me tecate:

the WhatAboutery police have landed.

Are you a Russian bot?

Never mind all that. Are you really a FIRE-fly? I've had my doubts about this for some time. I'm pretty sure you're some other type of fly. I think you have more of an air of a Scathophaga stercoraria about you than a FIRE-fly.

 

[Firefly]

the WhatAboutery police have landed.


Never mind all that. Are you really a FIRE-fly? I've had my doubts about this for some time. I'm pretty sure you're some other type of fly.

Diversion, answering a question with another question etc etc etc. I think in Maths that would be known as Q.E.D

Happy trolling...yawn!

 

[Purple]

I said that by and large he has their support. That matters whether or not they have a "say" or to what extent they have a "say." The point stands.

He had murdered swaths of journalists and political opponents and closed down all opposition. There is no credible way to know what support he has and why.

By them you mean every man, woman and child and that they're fully deserving of the genocide and ethnic cleansing.

No I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. That's the sort of thing that happens in oppressive totalitarian states like Russia, Iran and Gaza.

Yes, of course. That's what the world sees you as now. How much social capital do you think you've destroyed these past 12 months?

Me? I'm not involved in the war at all. I just see two sets of despicable people who think they have a mandate from their invisible friends in the sky to kill each other who are using that mandate to inflict horrendous acts of barbarity on each other. What I certainly don't see is a binary war between the good guys and the bad guys. I see Hamas as utterly evil and the State they want to create as utterly evil. I see Hezbollah as a less extreme version of the same thing. I see Israel as a democratic State led by an evil man, propped up by fundamentalist nutters who are as bad as Hamas. As a State are nowhere near as extreme or bad as Hamas but they are far more powerful.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Are you a Russian bot?

It is a Bitcoin hard fork. But you are right, many suspect the Kremlin is behind it.

 

[tecate]

He had murdered swaths of journalists and political opponents and closed down all opposition. There is no credible way to know what support he has and why.

Political opponents backed by a U.S. three letter agency. There may not be a definitive way to determine it but I've spoken to Russians who've told me that he does have popular support, particularly in terms of the conflict.

No I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. That's the sort of thing that happens in oppressive totalitarian states like Russia, Iran and Gaza.

You've justified a genocide by going on about 'human shields'. Using this trumped up excuse for genocide and ethnic cleansing in a totally asymmetric conflict is beyond deplorable.

I see Hamas as utterly evil and the State they want to create as utterly evil.

Whatever they were before, if anyone thinks they're going to show a modicum of humanity over the decades ahead where the zionists are concerned (and the rest of us for that matter given the zionist backing from most of "the west"), they haven't thought this through.

 

[Purple]

Political opponents backed by a U.S. three letter agency. There may not be a definitive way to determine it but I've spoken to Russians who've told me that he does have popular support, particularly in terms of the conflict.

That's even funnier than your last one.
You will find that the pro-democracy political opponents of totalitarian dictators are supported by democratic countries.

Were all the journalists he's murdered also supported by a U.S. three letter agency?

You've justified a genocide by going on about 'human shields'.

No I haven't. I've pointed out that Hamas use their own population as a human shield and don't care at all about how many of their own children are killed.

Using this trumped up excuse for genocide and ethnic cleansing in a totally asymmetric conflict is beyond deplorable.

You have a very childish understanding of war and conflict and how the real world works.
Do you think Israel should allow more of their soldiers to be killed in order to balance things out?
Do you think that they should not attack Hamas targets because Hamas are using their own children as human shields? If so then Hamas are untouchable.
Do you think that Israel should not respond to Iran's proxy Hezbollah when they fire thousands of rockets into Israel and render the border are uninhabitable?

Do you agree with Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran that Israel should be wiped off the map?

Whatever they were before, if anyone thinks they're going to show a modicum of humanity over the decades ahead where the zionists are concerned (and the rest of us for that matter given the zionist backing from most of "the west"), they haven't thought this through.

I've already corrected you on your misuse of the word Zionist.

 

[tecate]

That's even funnier than your last one.
You will find that the pro-democracy political opponents of totalitarian dictators are supported by democratic countries.

And YOU will find that the "leaders of the free world" have been overthrowing governments (or attempting to) globally for donkeys years, including examples within the past 12 months. Ukraine in 2014 being another example. You may think this sort of activity is ok - I certainly don't.

No I haven't. I've pointed out that Hamas use their own population as a human shield and don't care at all about how many of their own children are killed.

Anyone who mentions this "human shield" nonsense is being totally disingenuous. It's a totally asymmetric conflict. They're not going to stand in a field in a nice neat column and get mown down.

You have a very childish understanding of war and conflict and how the real world works.

You don't say.

Do you think Israel should allow more of their soldiers to be killed in order to balance things out?

What I think is that the zionists should engage in line with the Geneva Convention as a bare minimum. More progressive would be to look at why they're caught up in a conflict and how that could be defused by consensus - but we're a long way from that type of sanity right now. Stealing people's land and confining people to an open air concentration camp (Gaza) are not compatible with a consensus-based solution.

Do you think that they should not attack Hamas targets because Hamas are using their own children as human shields? If so then Hamas are untouchable.

See above. At a minimum, I'd expect them to abide by the Geneva Convention. If that is "inconvenient" then that should be their problem. Instead, you have the "leaders of the free world" giving them full license to carry out a genocide. Have you seen Mileikowsky in an orange jumpsuit and irons? Last I saw was him being cheered on in Capitol Hill.

Do you think that Israel should not respond to Iran's proxy Hezbollah when they fire thousands of rockets into Israel and render the border are uninhabitable?

You seem to have forgotten the basis upon which Hezbollah was founded. People have the right to defend themselves from an occupying force. Israel continues to occupy their land.

Do you agree with Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran that Israel should be wiped off the map?

Given the actions of the Israelis over the years I can understand their mindset. That said, I don't personally believe that no. If they bombed half my family to smithereens, I'd have a different opinion.

I've already corrected you on your misuse of the word Zionist.

You think you have but you're mistaken.

 

[Purple]

And YOU will find that the "leaders of the free world" have been overthrowing governments (or attempting to) globally for donkeys years, including examples within the past 12 months. Ukraine in 2014 being another example. You may think this sort of activity is ok - I certainly don't.

I'm all for democratic countries helping people under totalitarian rule to gain their freedom.

Anyone who mentions this "human shield" nonsense is being totally disingenuous. It's a totally asymmetric conflict. They're not going to stand in a field in a nice neat column and get mown down.

Yea, but they could use fortified positions or mobile attach sites. Do you think that the alternative to standing in a field in a nice neat column and getting mown down is to use their own children as human shields?

What I think is that the zionists should engage in line with the Geneva Convention as a bare minimum.

You mean the Israelis? Do you think the Government of Gaza and Iran's proxies in Lebanon should also engage in line with the Geneva Convention?

More progressive would be to look at why they're caught up in a conflict and how that could be defused by consensus - but we're a long way from that type of sanity right now.

I agree.

Stealing people's land and confining people to an open air concentration camp (Gaza) are not compatible with a consensus-based solution.

Have you seen photo's of Gaza before the war?

See above. At a minimum, I'd expect them to abide by the Geneva Convention. If that is "inconvenient" then that should be their problem.

Does that cut both ways?

Instead, you have the "leaders of the free world" giving them full license to carry out a genocide.

No they don't.

Have you seen Mileikowsky in an orange jumpsuit and irons? Last I saw was him being cheered on in Capitol Hill.

Why are you calling him by his fathers name?

You seem to have forgotten the basis upon which Hezbollah was founded. People have the right to defend themselves from an occupying force. Israel continues to occupy their land.

Are you going to answer my question?

Given the actions of the Israelis over the years I can understand their mindset. That said, I don't personally believe that no.

Okay, so you are Zionist. Congratulations.

If they bombed half my family to smithereens, I'd have a different opinion.

That has to cut both ways, no?

You think you have but you're mistaken.

No, I've explained it clearly. You've chosen to ignore it.

Given your belief in international law and the Geneva Convention I presume you unequivocally condemn the invasion of Ukraine by Russia?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

More power to you @Purple. Would you like to join me in the Great Bitcoin Debate? To be fair to LWT they do seem to be able to take on multiple odds against in terms of numerical superiority.
My tuppence worth on the rules of the game for terrorists. True their rules are less demanding and we have often heard in the NI context that the state forces should be held to a higher standard - and we all sign up to that. But I do not recall the IRA using hospitals and schools as their launch pads.