Marriage equality referendum - "rights" to kids etc.

Let's get real. This is all a total nonsense. Any such honest attempt to truly make same sex marriage identical to normal marriage in the eyes of the constitution would risk certain defeat and stop the inexorable rush to political correctness.

What exactly is your point though?, surely it's not disappointment that legislation alone cannot deliver perfect outcomes? Like the time of divorce referendum, all the NO arguments were against marriage breakdown whereas the real question was the right to remarry. Now all the NO arguments are spurious (surrogacy red herring & 'gendered institution' waffle), the reality is there are gay couples (like there were broken marriages - reality don't change), so the only question is, basically, do we leave discrimination on the books or not?? No brainer
 
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Betsy, do you think our constitution is discriminatory in talking about the role of the "woman" in the home and the role of the "mother"? It seems to me these are discriminatory and I have no problem with that. Discrimination is the human condition, can you imagine a society were applications for a job were decided by lot?

If this ref was honest it would remove those discriminatory references to the "woman" and the "mother" as that is the implication of the equality of same sex marriage but of course then the ref would fail.
 
Discrimination is the human condition, can you imagine a society were applications for a job were decided by lot?
Eh? That's a new one on me. I've never heard anyone suggest that rational selection, without bias, was discrimination.

If this ref was honest it would remove those discriminatory references to the "woman" and the "mother" as that is the implication of the equality of same sex marriage but of course then the ref would fail.
I agree. All such references should be removed. Are you sure it would fail?
 
I agree. All such references should be removed. Are you sure it would fail?

It was discussed at the constitutional convention:

Only 11 per cent believed the article should remain as it is. But if it were to be changed, 12 per cent were in favour of it being completely deleted with 88 per cent preferring that it be modified.
A huge majority – 98 per cent – of delegates said they supported a proposal to alter the article to make it gender neutral and to acknowledge the important role of other carers in the home.

The main opposition to reform this part has blamed them damn feminists who keep refusing to bow down to 1930s gender stereotypes and roles. However, while as a provision that may be troublesome to our modern progressive eyes, it doesn't lead to any active discrimination. A father can stay at home and the mother work and the state doesn't discriminate. Employers might, however, if the father wishes to return to the workplace, but that isn't forced upon society by the constitution.

The referrendum is honest a group of people are being discriminated against because of their sexuality: yes to provide equal rights and recognition to all civil marriages, no to maintain discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.

No argument against stands up to even the simplest scrutiny. No amount of red herrings, falsehoods, straw men or accusations of bullying can change the fact that we are voting on the right to dignity and recognition for our friends, neighbours and family who only differ from us by virtue of sexuality.
 
Purple yes, that was a silly point on the jobs, I was getting excited at the time by the prospects of my 10/1 bet that the Tories would win an overall majority.:)

But my point on the very simplistic nature of the vote stands. Whether a more full blown throwing out of all the traditional values in Article 41 would succeed or not is of course speculation.
 
It was discussed at the constitutional convention:



The main opposition to reform this part has blamed them damn feminists who keep refusing to bow down to 1930s gender stereotypes and roles. However, while as a provision that may be troublesome to our modern progressive eyes, it doesn't lead to any active discrimination. A father can stay at home and the mother work and the state doesn't discriminate. Employers might, however, if the father wishes to return to the workplace, but that isn't forced upon society by the constitution.
This is off topic and nothing to do with this referendum. It does show how out dated our constitution is. Changing it completely is the same as removing it. I don't see what it has to do with feminists or anti-feminists. You do seem to have strong negative views about what could be referred to as the "men's rights" movement. Since you argue so strongly for equality on other issues I find that strange.

The referrendum is honest a group of people are being discriminated against because of their sexuality: yes to provide equal rights and recognition to all civil marriages, no to maintain discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.

No argument against stands up to even the simplest scrutiny. No amount of red herrings, falsehoods, straw men or accusations of bullying can change the fact that we are voting on the right to dignity and recognition for our friends, neighbours and family who only differ from us by virtue of sexuality.
Agreed.
 
This is off topic and nothing to do with this referendum. It does show how out dated our constitution is. Changing it completely is the same as removing it. I don't see what it has to do with feminists or anti-feminists. You do seem to have strong negative views about what could be referred to as the "men's rights" movement. Since you argue so strongly for equality on other issues I find that strange.

I agree entirely, I was just noting that it isn't something that isn't on the radar and was part of a whole suite of constitutional amendments discussed. My negativity towards men's rights is that it isn't an rights movement, but an anti-feminism one and unfortunately in many cases an aggressively misogynistic one. That's not equality no matter how much you dress it up.

Anyway, this debate does get pulled off topic, usually by red herrings. It is still important to discuss/address those to highlight why they aren't relevant to the debate and thus keep the debate on track. Like the surrogacy or adoption issue, ignoring or dismissing it has only kept it relevant and part of a certain element of the No campaign's message of fear (while claiming they're being bullied). As has been seen on this thread, a few posts can refute the issue of surrogacy or adoption as having any relevance.
 
Anyway, this debate does get pulled off topic, usually by red herrings.
Many people agree with this statement which shows how disingenuous this whole charade is. They want to present this as simply an issue of "equality". What modern man or woman could possibly be against "equality"? Issues about the family are red herrings, so they claim. Well that might be the Ref that these people want but according to the Ref Commission it is not the ref that is before us. The Refcom site and brochure puts Article 41 right up front as the central issue. Article 41 is all about the family.

But here is a bizarre and sinister twist. In the Refcom.ie site the whole of Article 41 is reproduced. But, to my shock, when I got the brochure in the post this morning it only produces what it calls an Extract. In fact the Extract gives 3 of the 4 original clauses, so it is not in the interests of brevity, that some of the original Article is redacted. The clause that is redacted is the very one I cited above about the role of the woman and the mother. Why this very selective redaction?:(

Undoubtedly this very dishonest ref will be passed, but the Refcom have surely left the door open for a robust challenge to its impartiality.
 
I agree entirely, I was just noting that it isn't something that isn't on the radar and was part of a whole suite of constitutional amendments discussed. My negativity towards men's rights is that it isn't an rights movement, but an anti-feminism one and unfortunately in many cases an aggressively misogynistic one. That's not equality no matter how much you dress it up.
There most certainly are anti-feminists and misogynists in the mix but there are some real issues at the centre of it and you do many men a disservice with such sweeping generalisations. The irony is that the same sort of sweeping generalisations and characterisations were used 40 years ago to dismiss feminists and feminism.
 
Many people agree with this statement which shows how disingenuous this whole charade is. They want to present this as simply an issue of "equality". What modern man or woman could possibly be against "equality"? Issues about the family are red herrings, so they claim. Well that might be the Ref that these people want but according to the Ref Commission it is not the ref that is before us. The Refcom site and brochure puts Article 41 right up front as the central issue. Article 41 is all about the family.

But here is a bizarre and sinister twist. In the Refcom.ie site the whole of Article 41 is reproduced. But, to my shock, when I got the brochure in the post this morning it only produces what it calls an Extract. In fact the Extract gives 3 of the 4 original clauses, so it is not in the interests of brevity, that some of the original Article is redacted. The clause that is redacted is the very one I cited above about the role of the woman and the mother. Why this very selective redaction?:(

Undoubtedly this very dishonest ref will be passed, but the Refcom have surely left the door open for a robust challenge to its impartiality.
That's both interesting and concerning but it doesn't change my opinion that while there certainly are side issues this is still fundamentally an issue of equality.
 
They want to present this as simply an issue of "equality". What modern man or woman could possibly be against "equality"? Issues about the family are red herrings, so they claim.
That's the best strategy for the Yes campaign; stick to the Equality mantra; no profit in recognising that we will be changing the Article 41 on 'The Family' or that such might have any ramifications.

Given the tsunami of support for the proposal from the political classes, state agencies, media, unions, business (not their business) and various sports and entertainment people, allied with the pillorying and negative characterisation of naysayers (as bigots, homophobes, religious zealots, etc.), it's little wonder that intending No voters have largely shied away from open discussion. In reality, the only danger to the Yes campaign is the Yes campaign . . Nice 1 and Lisbon 1 show that the polls can be wide of the mark.
 
But here is a bizarre and sinister twist.
The clause does read as dated but its omission is hard to fathom. Although the Referendum Commission had previously been neutered by Government, heretofore it had not been submissive. It seems that the powers that be deem gender balance to be important in the Board Room and to political candidature but not relevant to parentage.

Dismissing the view that marriage is gendered, indeed dismissal of all No arguments, as being disingenuous and sexual discrimination is akin to dismissing arguments against the Age of Presidential Candidates referendum as being disingenuous and age discrimination. That notwithstanding, many who will vote Yes to change Article 41 on 'The Family' will vote No to the other proposition, with no sense of duplicity.
 
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Many people agree with this statement which shows how disingenuous this whole charade is. They want to present this as simply an issue of "equality". What modern man or woman could possibly be against "equality"? Issues about the family are red herrings, so they claim. Well that might be the Ref that these people want but according to the Ref Commission it is not the ref that is before us. The Refcom site and brochure puts Article 41 right up front as the central issue. Article 41 is all about the family.

But here is a bizarre and sinister twist. In the Refcom.ie site the whole of Article 41 is reproduced. But, to my shock, when I got the brochure in the post this morning it only produces what it calls an Extract. In fact the Extract gives 3 of the 4 original clauses, so it is not in the interests of brevity, that some of the original Article is redacted. The clause that is redacted is the very one I cited above about the role of the woman and the mother. Why this very selective redaction?:(

Undoubtedly this very dishonest ref will be passed, but the Refcom have surely left the door open for a robust challenge to its impartiality.

But the issue on the family is a red herring because there hasn't been an argument put forward that stands up to any scrutiny to say why a same sex couple cannot and should not be considered a family. Why they cannot and should not be parents. Why they cannot and should not have their union recognised and protected by the state.

There most certainly are anti-feminists and misogynists in the mix but there are some real issues at the centre of it and you do many men a disservice with such sweeping generalisations. The irony is that the same sort of sweeping generalisations and characterisations were used 40 years ago to dismiss feminists and feminism.

We're getting miles off topic, but I strongly disagree with you. There are issues for men that need to be campaigned for and, as an umarried father, I am personally impacted by such lack of rights. But the problem is who is delivering the message. Take John Waters, he is absolutely right about fathers. 100%. But, he uses this as a stick to be against same sex marriage. Similarly there is a very pervasive and demonstrable anti-feminist stance among the Men's Rights Groups. So even though they may have valid points on where men are impacted, their policies are impacted by saying feminism has gone too far and that it is feminists that are now holding back men. Believing in equality doesn't mean I have to align myself with a group or sympathise with them, even if they have a point, when their policies are abhorent. That would make me George Galloway.

That's the best strategy for the Yes campaign; stick to the Equality mantra; no profit in recognising that we will be changing the Article 41 on 'The Family' or that such might have any ramifications.

Given the tsunami of support for the proposal from the political classes, state agencies, media, unions, business (not their business) and various sports and entertainment people, allied with the pillorying and negative characterisation of naysayers (as bigots, homophobes, religious zealots, etc.), it's little wonder that intending No voters have largely shied away from open discussion. In reality, the only danger to the Yes campaign is the Yes campaign . . Nice 1 and Lisbon 1 show that the polls can be wide of the mark.

This is the same as the negative characterisation of naysayers. You imply there is something else or someother motive to the Yes campaign other than Equality. If there is, what is it? Have you listened to anything the people directly impacted by this referrendum have said? The ones who have to ask us for our permission to be considered equal citizens? What other agenda is there than Equality?

There is a pervasive theme in the No campaign inferring that the Yes side are being disingenuous by stating it is about equality but without actually explainig what other agenda we might have or why we may be lying that it is about equality.

The isuse of ramifications on family has been openly discussed, constitutional lawyers haven't found any, so what are they? Shying away from discussions is one thing, but even those who are not shying away are not putting forward any tangible examples of ramifications, at least none that aren't easily refuted by simple research.

Even if you believe that the union of a man and woman (conditional on them being able to naturally have children) is special, or that man and women is the only unit to raise children (so long single parents, back to the mother and baby homes) then it is still about equality because you are saying that homesexual couples are not equal to that standard. So it is, by each and every definition about equality, just whether you feel a group of people are equal or not, but it is still equality.

Unless you have some other agenda that might be behind the Yes campaign.
 
This is the same as the negative characterisation of naysayers.
Hardly.
Even if you believe that the union of a man and woman (conditional on them being able to naturally have children) is special
Such unions are fundamental and indispensable to society . . not conditional, couples who cannot or do not have children do not deny any child either a mother or a father.
or that man and women is the only unit to raise children
Again, not the only unit but, all else being equal, the best unit.
so long single parents, back to the mother and baby homes
Please :rolleyes:.
then it is still about equality because you are saying that homesexual couples are not equal to that standard.
Different. We can put into the Constitution that an Apple is the same as an Orange, but that won't make it so.
 
It is suggesting that the Yes campaign is being disingenuous with regards to its motivations without providing an alternative as to what you believe their motivations are. "Equality Mantra" is deliberately demeaning the views and dignity of those specifically and directly impacted by the current laws. You may not believe they are equal enough to deserve equality, but that does not mean it isn't about equality

Such unions are fundamental and indispensable to society . . not conditional, couples who cannot or do not have children do not deny any child either a mother or a father.

Nobody is denying biology. But the point is that as far as the constitution is concerned having children is not conditional on marriage and being a family is not conditional on marriage. Outside of the male/female marriage that bears children, there are already familiy units that do not conform to that or follow that model. They have recognition and protection.

You make a point on a child being denied a mother or a father, but I don't see how this is the case with same sex couples. No one will be denied anything. There aren't enough couples wishing to adopt or foster as it is, we need more.

.Again, not the only unit but, all else being equal, the best unit.
Different. We can put into the Constitution that an Apple is the same as an Orange, but that won't make it so.

I think these are points which are a matter of belief. However, the problem comes down to the fact that there rarely is a situation where all things are equal. New legislation will just remove sexuality of a couple as being a barrier to adopting, all other conditions and criteria regarding age, health, lifestyle, income, stability, etc will have to be assessed. Rightly, in order to adopt you have to jump through numerous hoops and proof of ability to be a parent.

And the apple and orange anology is grossly inaccurate. We are all humans, the one difference is sexuality, not separate species. Apples and oranges would work if we were comparing equality with other primates, not other human beings.
 
Different. We can put into the Constitution that an Apple is the same as an Orange, but that won't make it so.
True, but that's not what we're voting on here Michael! To use your example, we're voting on whether the apple and orange deserve equal rights. We're not saying they're the same.
 
True, but that's not what we're voting on here Michael!
We are being asked to redefine both marriage and the family . . it is unfortunate that the Government could not have sought to removed inequalities, real and perceived, by overhauling civil partnership and giving it constitutional protection if required, rather than distorting Article 41.
 
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I dunno, the main problem the 'No' campaign comes up with is the surrogacy and adoption question.

At the moment, does anyone even know how many children are adopted in this country? How many domestic and how many international adoptions? How many to couples, how many to singletons? How many as a result of an open competition for a child, how many inter-family? The argument seems to be based on a picture of a baby being auctioned off, with no consideration given to the Adoption Authority or Real Life.

The other insidious part is that it sets up a two dad couple against a perfect hetrosexual couple. No mention of assessing the suitability of either set of parents, no consideration of two women, because two women would be much more sympathetic than two men.

I have only discussed this referendum with people in Real Life this week, and everyone I've talked to so far has been dead set against it. There is a big silent NO vote out there.
 
I have only discussed this referendum with people in Real Life this week, and everyone I've talked to so far has been dead set against it. There is a big silent NO vote out there.

The above is not the full quote of terrysgirl33 and I am taking the quote from its full context?

There is a big silent No vote out there - What a great pity!

In case somebody looking in here thinks that I am setting myself up in the high moral ground. Let's all ask ourselves the question:- Can any of us say we were never homophobic in any way whatsoever? Answer:- I think we were all guilty, at least at some stage.

Dreadful wrongs have been done to our homosexual community, for one reason or another. We cannot make excuses. But, we have a chance to make some retribution and that is by voting Yes in a couple of weeks time. The referendum is about Equality, nothing else.
 
........Dreadful wrongs have been done to our homosexual community, for one reason or another. We cannot make excuses. But, we have a chance to make some retribution and that is by voting Yes in a couple of weeks time. ........

There is a saying that 'Hard cases make bad law' and I think that this is happening here. i.e. People may be voting 'Yes' out of some misplaced and emotional sense of guilt. .....Not a good reason (imo)
 
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