Marriage equality referendum - "rights" to kids etc.

Sol28

Frequent Poster
I just returned to this site after a bit of an absence - and looked back at some of my past posts and this thread popped up, It would be interesting to see if some of the active commentators on this thread have changed their mindset or seen any societal differences 4 years post referendum?
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
Welcome back Sol28.

I haven’t changed my views other than I think we are all a big self congratulatory when it comes to how “right-on” we are. There is still considerable homophobia and transphobia in Ireland (some of the transphobia coming from Lesbians). While it’s great to have a generally very progressive society, for those who are “different” in the margins I’m not sure enough has changed.


As for the societal change, I think that happened before and during the referendum.


It is also a positive that the marriage equality referendum gave unmarried fathers, for the first time in Irish law, automatic rights to their own children.
 
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Leper

Frequent Poster
Hi Sol. Welcome back to the site. Like Purple said things haven't changed much especially in the older generation. However the oldies do not matter as they are an expiring entity. I'm an oldie too, but never had anti gay feelings.

Our "oldies" were brought up when homosexual was the worst possible way to be. Our church (from the pulpit) informed us it was an illness. The state advised it was a crime. Suddenly, homosexuality was deemed not to be a crime and the whole population was expected to accept homosexuality in an instant like turning on a switch. Things don't work like that and everything takes time. I'm not trying to justify anything here.

Unfortunately, homosexuality is not accepted by some. These are usually the ignorant and those who don't want to accept other than what they call the norm. I know hardened university graduates who will not accept homosexuality. There is no point in chasing rainbows (no pun intended); no matter what is done these anti gays are not going to change. However, they will expire and you won't have too long to wait.

About three years ago I listened to a gay politician from Cork asking homosexual people to accept "trans" people openly. He pointed out (like Purple above) that some gay people were shunning "trans" people. I'm probably not using the right words, forgive please.

Again, welcome back to the site. I hope you get involved in the day-to-day debates/discussions/banter here. I'm sure you have a lot to contribute.
 

michaelm

Frequent Poster
I'm another who's views haven't changed. As for societal differences it seems to me that identity politics and equality of outcome are increasingly in vogue.

Go easy on the sherry in the mornings Leper.
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
I'm another who's views haven't changed. As for societal differences it seems to me that identity politics and equality of outcome are increasingly in vogue.

Go easy on the sherry in the mornings Leper.
What have identity politics and equality of outcome got to do with the two issues here; marriage equality and, for the first time in the history of the State, unmarried men having automatic rights to their own children?
 

Betsy Og

Frequent Poster
I think "Equality of Outcome" is an interesting point. The State should give fair opportunity ("equal" doesn't exist, some can always pay for more, we cant commit to equalling the top available) -outcome depends on the individual and their choices. The State can't Nanny everyone. If you want to live in Dublin in social housing you have to know its a long wait. Housing could probably be found further afield in the 26 a lot quicker, so make your choice. Good education should be made available to all (& generally is), but you can only lead a horse to water. If someone doesn't engage I don't see why everyone else has to be cough up so they don't feel bad about it - & this is not about academics, I know rakes of lads who wouldn't have considered themselves "good at school" but would buy & sell me in terms of what they have done (in trades etc.) and fair play to them.

On the main topic, my views haven't change. I'm surprised gay people wouldn't accept trans people. It's all so complicated now that I'm in the "I don't give a hang what you like, were, will be, do, don't do. What business of mine is it?, hope you are happy & the best of luck."
 

Sol28

Frequent Poster
I'm surprised gay people wouldn't accept trans people. It's all so complicated now that I'm in the "I don't give a hang what you like, were, will be, do, don't do. What business of mine is it?, hope you are happy & the best of luck."
Some gay people dont like trans folk - but 99% of the gay people I know are fully accepting. Once again - its the few extreme people who get their views aired. Just like, back in the debates about marriage equality, there were a couple of gay guys who did not want equal marriage, and whom were paraded on the debate shows by the No side. The LGBT community is as diverse in their likes/dislikes/tolerances/intolerances as the main stream populace.

But I like your stance, Betsy Og. If no one is getting hurt or being taken advantage of, if people have the capacity to make their own decision and it does not harm you or me - they let them at it! My rights' should not impinge on my neighbours' rights and theirs should not impinge on mine - after that - away with you!
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
But I like your stance, Betsy Og. If no one is getting hurt or being taken advantage of, if people have the capacity to make their own decision and it does not harm you or me - they let them at it! My rights' should not impinge on my neighbours' rights and theirs should not impinge on mine - after that - away with you!
Yep, that's what I try to teach my children. There's no "them and us", there's just "us".
 

Duke of Marmalade

Frequent Poster
Some gay people dont like trans folk - but 99% of the gay people I know are fully accepting.
The mathematical pedant in me says that you therefore know at least 100 gay people:cool:
Defining “know” as someone who I know and who knows me (cuts out Leo etc.) I think I count 3 people in that category. If I further qualify it by being required to know their attitude to trans folk I’m afraid it becomes a void constituency.
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
The mathematical pedant in me says that you therefore know at least 100 gay people:cool:
Defining “know” as someone who I know and who knows me (cuts out Leo etc.) I think I count 3 people in that category. If I further qualify it by being required to know their attitude to trans folk I’m afraid it becomes a void constituency.
That mathematical pedant is a real difficult person and may be the reason you only know 3 people ;) :p
 

Sol28

Frequent Poster
The mathematical pedant in me says that you therefore know at least 100 gay people:cool:
Defining “know” as someone who I know and who knows me (cuts out Leo etc.) I think I count 3 people in that category. If I further qualify it by being required to know their attitude to trans folk I’m afraid it becomes a void constituency.
Well, I helped set up numerous sports groups etc. for LGBT people and their friends - so I can confidently state that I would know well over 100 gay people!
 

Duke of Marmalade

Frequent Poster
The pedant in me says it's actually 67 people allowing for rounding!! :D
In fact we can pin down Sol's knowledge of gay people who have revealed their thoughts to him on trans to Nx(67:199) I'm intrigued to know what N is.

I'm only slagging Sol, sorry:oops:
 
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Purple

Frequent Poster
In fact we can pin down Sol's knowledge of gay people who have revealed their thoughts to him on trans to Nx(67:199) I'm intrigued to know what N is.

I'm only slagging Sol, sorry:oops:
When people tell me they've never met a Trans person I always ask them now they know they didn't.
 

Duke of Marmalade

Frequent Poster
When people tell me they've never met a Trans person I always ask them now they know they didn't.
What I can say is that none of my acquaintances of any ilk have expressed an opinion on trans folk so I am not in any position to offer statistical analysis on that front. Made me wonder though what are my acquaintances’ views on other topical subjects. The following statistical analysis does not necessarily reflect my own views though we do tend to inhabit echo chambers:cool:
100% against The Donald
100% against Brexit
100% for the Backstop
100% against Irexit
100% think bitcoin is a nonsense
80% against SF (with my Northern background I have no statistically significant figures for other Southern political parties)
80% against abortion on demand up to 12 weeks (big generational split here)
50% in favor of marriage equality (though this is not a very strongly held position either way)
50% support ManU 10% ABU (quite strong views here, I myself am ABU)
50% have the Folsom blues against everything capitalist, corporate or American
 
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