C
Chocks away
Guest
But surely, if the foreign soldiers were not there they could not get shot.
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That's kind of the crux of the issue isn't it? They occupied us, not the other way around.
I take Purples point about 800 years of oppression. On consideration it was probably more like 600 years.
My own family history evokes mixed feelings in me. My paternal grandfather was born in the British Army barracks in Ballinasloe where my great grandparents were attending a dinner party being staunch members of the protestant anglo-irish ascendancy. My fathers extended family continue to this day to be entwined in governance and policing in Norn' Iron. In fact my family originally arrived in Ireland with Oliver Cromwell as french mercenaries paid to hand the irish their asses. So successful were they that they were awarded a whole townland in north Dublin one street of which still bears their name. Pity they didn't hold onto it or we'd all be billionaires! But I digress...
Compare that to my catholic maternal grandmothers experience. Born just after the turn of the century (also in Mayo by coincidence) she suffered the indignity of having a piece of wood hung around her neck on a piece of twine and having it notched by the teacher every time she was caught speaking 'as Gaeilge'. At the end of the week she was beaten in accordance with how many notches she had accumulated. Hence the british 'system' exterminated the irish language amongst her generation and irreperably, in my opinion, damaged the culture of our nation. If that's not oppression then what is? We don't even have to go back that far to find examples of british oppression in southern Ireland. Forget about the north which was a basket case from it's inception.
On balance I feel more for my grandmother than my grandfather (who was born with a regimental silver spoon wedged firmly in his butt). This is all just about in living memory so why would I wish to entertain the Queen of England in Dublin when her granny subjected my granny to such hardship.
Your assumption is naturally right, as Caveat says also. My issue is when this is used to justify any action. For every injustice there's been an equal injustice, some chose which ones to remember and which to filter out to support an agenda. I can't, one drop of innocent blood is one drop too much. We'll never know what, how, who or where we'd be without being under British Rule, we'll never know how the North would have developed if there had of been a complete handover and a complete Ireland. We could still be in a civil war now, we could be completely integrated. We could have 4 countries split along provinces, even worse we could be like Belgium. At least we're not like Belgium.
And your last point is, to me, the ultimate point.
Ancutza, I'm sure we've all recent and long past family histories from this Island and all related to British rule, as MrMan says we can't undo that, no one can. But I don't see how you can just ignore your other heritage and only focus on one-side.
I suppose my view is very selfish on this but in someway relevant I guess. With family decimated by famine, split up by immigration, and all the usual woes, but if they hadn't have happened my great great grandfathers wouldn't have met my great great grandmothers, who wouldn't have given birth to my great grandparents, who wouldn't have met and given birth to my grandparents, who wouldn't have met and given birth to my parents who wouldn't have met and given birth to me.
It's part of my history, I'll make sure that history lives with furture generations if only so they can be thankful (I hope) that we live in peaceful times, but also that they're the decendents of survivors and fighters. I'm not going to pass on the history to harbour resentment for deeds done in much different times to our own.
Like Purple I don't like Monarchies, any of them, even the ones that are just ceremonial. I also resent having to pay out to accomodate someone who fancies a visit just so politicians can pat themselves on the back and release a second book of memoires as to how great they were and we should forget all the bad corrupt stuff they did. I'll not bother going to see her, I won't watch any coverage on the television, not out of any resentment to her where she represents, but because all that stuff bores me anyway, irrespective of who they are.
I really doubt we'll see anyone (other than the odd ex-pat British) out waving union jacks, singing God Save the Queen or anything else. To be honest I detect more apathy to the whole thing than any other emotion and I actually think that's a good thing, in the modern vernacular "we're so over it". There you go: the apathy shows how mature as a nation we are...
I think David Cameron set a good example recently apologising for Bloody Sunday. Perhaps Lizzie could take note and use this trip to apologise for the x00 years of oppression.
Put it this way, being dis-courteous to the current Queen of England (hereinafter referred to as "the Queen" 
) wont right any of the past wrongs. All of which happened before she was born.
In reality this is about relations between 2 countries sitting side by side, trading with each other, sharing each others culture (probably us dipping into theirs more than vice versa) etc. etc. All that protesting against the Queen will achieve is a needless souring of those relations. Many British people have no time for the Queen either, but would probably take it as an affront if we couldnt be civil to her.
Brian Cowen is probably to most unpopular Taoiseach ever, but if a load of yobs turned out in the UK to insult him as a leprechaun/paddy you probably wouldnt be too happy (you'd say it was our job to insult him on our soil for the job he's doing).
Even France & Germany now seem to get on ok and there was generation decimating slaughter on both sides, twice, in the last 100 years. Time to move on people.....
) wont right any of the past wrongs. All of which happened before she was born. In reality this is about relations between 2 countries sitting side by side, trading with each other, sharing each others culture (probably us dipping into theirs more than vice versa) etc. etc. All that protesting against the Queen will achieve is a needless souring of those relations. Many British people have no time for the Queen either, but would probably take it as an affront if we couldnt be civil to her.
Brian Cowen is probably to most unpopular Taoiseach ever, but if a load of yobs turned out in the UK to insult him as a leprechaun/paddy you probably wouldnt be too happy (you'd say it was our job to insult him on our soil for the job he's doing).
Even France & Germany now seem to get on ok and there was generation decimating slaughter on both sides, twice, in the last 100 years. Time to move on people.....
And what about the Army Band members blown to bits at their school of music in Kent? What did they have to do with NI? What did the innocent people who died through bombs being placed in busy civilian areas in NI and other parts of the UK have to do with the occupation of Northern Ireland? Do you want to go to the parents of Tim Parry and Jonathon Bell and say 'well if your army wasn't in NI, your son's would be alive'? There are numerous other examples.
I can understand why the PIRA was formed. I can understand the anger and misery of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland that was inflicted on them by the British State. I can understand why they felt they had no alternative but to take up an armed struggle.
Having said that, the PIRA and other Paramilitary organisations on both sides lost any moral authority they may have had when they started killing innocent people including children. I despise Israeli policy with regard to Gaza and the Palestinian people and they are even worse occupiers than the Bristish were in Norther Ireland (they won't even admit they are occupying it). But no matter what the Israeli army and Government do, there is no justification for suicide bombers to blow up innocent civilians on Israeli streets. Just like there is no justification for 9/11, the London Bombings or the Madrid Bombings.
I don't care if the Queen comes or not. I certainly won't be going out to the streets to welcome her just like I wasn't one of those idiots that piled into College Green to welcome the Clintons and waving American flags a few years ago. I have English friends and relatives. I worked in England for awhile. I like England and its people (especially because they can't take a slagging). Never once throughout the years have I had the IRA thrown in my face by English people (apart from a couple of BNP biggots) despite the misery caused. The least I can do is return the favour and move on. If that means letting the Queen drop in to see our President, then so be it.
Paramilitarism, militarism and murder aside, just to throw another spanner in the works, we will be hosting a head of state (whose monarchy is fundamentally sectarian) in this, what is still, essentially a catholic country.
In the eyes of the British monarchy, catholics are basically third class citizens. I'm not a catholic and never have been but surely this will rankle with many here?
In the eyes of the British monarchy, catholics are basically third class citizens. I'm not a catholic and never have been but surely this will rankle with many here?
The whole NI situation is caused by the fact that a large proportion of the Queen of England's subjects feel that they are being treated unfairly and dont want to be subjects AND because the Queen does not take on board the wishes of most of her subjects (i.e. those in Britain) who, if given choice today, would get rid of NI asap.
As she is the Monarch, she IS the country. Legally speaking, she is the top level owner of everything. The Government is her personal government, the army is her personal army, the police are hers personal police force etc etc. They all exist to serve her. Therefore she is personally to blame for everything.
As she is the Monarch, she IS the country. Legally speaking, she is the top level owner of everything. The Government is her personal government, the army is her personal army, the police are hers personal police force etc etc. They all exist to serve her. Therefore she is personally to blame for everything.
C
Chocks away
Guest
Rarely do appeasers or bleeding hearts get a hard time from conquerors.
I've always struggled with this. If the majority of people in England wanted to rid themselves on NI and we in the Republic can't afford / not bothered either, then why don't both sides in NI come together and say "screw it, lets form our own independent country and operate as a tax-free state like Jersey?"
Z
z104
Guest
Because half the people up North see themselves as Irish and most of the people in south of Ireland want reunification.
Any anyway, It's just down right wrong that the country is still partitioned.
The 6 counties were stolen, We know who the thief is and where the goods are stashed . All we need now is to get what is rightfully ours back.
Any anyway, It's just down right wrong that the country is still partitioned.
The 6 counties were stolen, We know who the thief is and where the goods are stashed . All we need now is to get what is rightfully ours back.
Problem is, at the time, the majority of decision makers in Ireland and in Britain agreed to it. I'm not saying that's the beginning and end of the story but it makes everything a bit more complicated than what you call "theft".
Z
z104
Guest
A bit like the decision makers that gave away our gas?
Could make her guest of honour at the Aviva Stadium on 17th November.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...ber-17-date-15-years-after-riots-2243312.html
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...ber-17-date-15-years-after-riots-2243312.html
Aye, with it needing a £5,000 Million a year top up and public service employment at 31%, not sure we could afford it either.
Z
z104
Guest
Eh?
Politicians