Lizzie Windsor to visit the auld sod

[Sunny]

They were not murdered by the Irish State or even anyone from it. Werent the murderers from Northern Ireland? The UK claims NI, so officially speaking, they were murdered by their fellow British subjects as part of a domestic dispute.

How do you know who killed them? There were plenty of members of the IRA from the Republic.
They were killed by members of the IRA who were proclaiming themselves as the true army of the Irish State. They received plenty of support from the South including arms and finance. Plenty of attacks were launched from this side of the border. We even elect members of the IRA to represent us in the Dail down here. I won't even go into Haughey and the Arms trial.
You can try and call it a 'domestic dispute' but the death of innocent Children hundreds of miles away from any war or dispute is as much a stain on our History as Bloody Sunday is on the the UK's. We may not have approved of their actions but the IRA acted in the name of Ireland. Just like the British Army acted in the name of Britain despite the fact that most civilian people would have been horrified at some of their actions.

 

[Purple]

To reiterate, if you object to the Queen visiting Ireland

I agree with your post (and Caveat's) but please be clear about which Queen you are talking about

 

[Purple]

You can try and call it a 'domestic dispute' but the death of innocent Children is as much a stain on our History as Bloody Sunday is on the the UK's.

I disagree; I think the IRA were far worse than the British security forces. Nothing the Para’s or the SAS or MI5 did was as bad as what the IRA did on a weekly basis. While I would condemn Bloody Sunday and the cover-up and collusion between some members of the British security forces and Loyalist paramilitaries I still would not draw any moral equivalences between them and the IRA.

 

[Sunny]

I disagree; I think the IRA were far worse than the British security forces. Nothing the Para’s or the SAS or MI5 did was as bad as what the IRA did on a weekly basis. While I would condemn Bloody Sunday and the cover-up and collusion between some members of the British security forces and Loyalist paramilitaries I still would not draw any moral equivalences between them and the IRA.

My point remains that the IRA is part of Irish History. We can't just say that they were in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland was in the UK and therefore it was a civil war. We don't get to wash our hands of IRA attrocities.

 

[Purple]

My point remains that the IRA is part of Irish History. We can't just say that they were in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland was in the UK and therefore it was a civil war. We don't get to wash our hands of IRA attrocities.

True, I was being flippant.

 

[Sunny]

True, I was being flippant.

Sorry. This started out as nice light-hearted thread about Lizzie. We should get back to that! Hope she brings Philip. He is bound to say something that will set back Irish-UK relations for another 800 years!

 

[Betsy Og]

We may not have approved of their actions but the IRA acted in the name of Ireland.

I wouldnt agree with that, maybe they were in their own heads (or, alternatively, maybe they had become an organised crime outfit with sectarian motivations) but certainly they were in no sense acting on the wishes of the vast majority of the Irish people or Irish politicians (no SF TD's at the time, maybe a few councillors here and there) and therefore were not acting in the name of Ireland.

The British Army (or any other army) acts in the name of its country, under the direction (initially at least) of the parliment.

 

[Sunny]

I wouldnt agree with that, maybe they were in their own heads (or, alternatively, maybe they had become an organised crime outfit with sectarian motivations) but certainly they were in no sense acting on the wishes of the vast majority of the Irish people or Irish politicians (no SF TD's at the time, maybe a few councillors here and there) and therefore were not acting in the name of Ireland.

The British Army (or any other army) acts in the name of its country, under the direction (initially at least) of the parliment.

Not saying they weren't acting against the wishes of the majority but lets not kid ourselves that they didn't get significant support from people living in the Republic. I know a few sympathisers who raised funds for them myself. The Provisional IRA were Irish terrorists.

 

[csirl]

i wouldnt agree with that, maybe they were in their own heads (or, alternatively, maybe they had become an organised crime outfit with sectarian motivations) but certainly they were in no sense acting on the wishes of the vast majority of the irish people or irish politicians (no sf td's at the time, maybe a few councillors here and there) and therefore were not acting in the name of ireland.

The british army (or any other army) acts in the name of its country, under the direction (initially at least) of the parliment.

+1

 

[csirl]

Not saying they weren't acting against the wishes of the majority but lets not kid ourselves that they didn't get significant support from people living in the Republic. I know a few sympathisers who raised funds for them myself. The Provisional IRA were Irish terrorists.

There are a lot of people from the UK raising funds for the taliban etc. and some even fighting for them. Doesnt mean that the UK people/government support the taliban. In fact the UK is fighting the taliban.

In Ireland, PIRA is an illegal organisation and membership is punishable by prison. Therefore you cannot say that Ireland supports the PIRA.

 

[Liamos]

Ancutza was making the point that he / she is opposed to the Queen's visit because the British crown was murdering Irishmen less than a generatio ago. I was just making the point that the IRA were doing likewise in Britain. You cannot mention one without the other. I know the reasons why they were doing it, but this doesn't mean they were right.

 

[Sunny]

There are a lot of people from the UK raising funds for the taliban etc. and some even fighting for them. Doesnt mean that the UK people/government support the taliban. In fact the UK is fighting the taliban.

In Ireland, PIRA is an illegal organisation and membership is punishable by prison. Therefore you cannot say that Ireland supports the PIRA.

Once again, I didn't say Ireland supported the PIRA. I said they got significant support from people in the South. You made some facitious comment about it being a domestic dispute between UK citizens and the deaths of innocent children in England had nothing to do with the Republic Of Ireland. That's simply not true.

 

[AlastairSC]

Begorrah Mam and 'tis a fine little country we have here, an' all. Sure look at us - living proof that the Irish can manage their own affairs: efficient transport and health services; proper planning; a well-developed infrastructure; a pluralist, secular society....

 

[Betsy Og]

Begorrah Mam and 'tis a fine little country we have here, an' all. Sure look at us - living proof that the Irish can manage their own affairs: efficient transport and health services; proper planning; a well-developed infrastructure; a pluralist, secular society....

Lets just say if the Monthy Python sketch had been about irish guys talking "What have the British ever done for us?", I dont think it would go on for too long , particularly in relation to the island of Ireland, most of the good stuff we ever got from Britain was when we went there or sold them stuff.

Plus, Britain has its own troubles, I wouldnt beat ourselves up too much on the assumption that everywhere else is so much better.

 

[MrMan]

My point remains that the IRA is part of Irish History. We can't just say that they were in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland was in the UK and therefore it was a civil war. We don't get to wash our hands of IRA attrocities.

Why would we even want to wash our hands of our darker history? We can't change our past we can just learn from it. There is alot to be ashamed about on both sides of the fence, but it comes back to what Cavaet has correctly stated, without the aggressive occupation of our country by the british there would have been no para attacks on British soil.

 

[Latrade]

Why would we even want to wash our hands of our darker history? We can't change our past we can just learn from it. There is alot to be ashamed about on both sides of the fence, but it comes back to what Cavaet has correctly stated, without the aggressive occupation of our country by the british there would have been no para attacks on British soil.

Kind of comes back to the old cliche of one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Is it fair to justify every action by the PIRA on the basis of the British Military presence? PIRA were responsible for more deaths than any other group over 1000 non-civilian and around 600 civilian. Does it justify funding from Libya? Does it justify that of the around 125 deaths from PIRA activities in England, 68 wer civilian? In order to execute those actions known terrorists/freedom fighters travelled by ferry (in some cases in hijacked cars) from Dublin to Liverpool, can we honestly say that not one person in the Gardai had information about this? Do we really want to start digging too deeply on these issues?

To me that's the whole point of this peace or attempts at peace that no one is clean, that no one wants to be casting too many stones. We shouldn't forget the past, that's not what is being suggested, but unless all sides are prepared to take full responsibility for their actions, inactions, knowledge and connivance, then perhaps it is better to let the attempts at reconcilliation progress as they are.

 

[Caveat]

Kind of comes back to the old cliche of one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Is it fair to justify every action by the PIRA on the basis of the British Military presence? PIRA were responsible for more deaths than any other group over 1000 non-civilian and around 600 civilian. Does it justify funding from Libya? Does it justify that of the around 125 deaths from PIRA activities in England, 68 wer civilian? In order to execute those actions known terrorists/freedom fighters travelled by ferry (in some cases in hijacked cars) from Dublin to Liverpool, can we honestly say that not one person in the Gardai had information about this? Do we really want to start digging too deeply on these issues?

To me that's the whole point of this peace or attempts at peace that no one is clean, that no one wants to be casting too many stones. We shouldn't forget the past, that's not what is being suggested, but unless all sides are prepared to take full responsibility for their actions, inactions, knowledge and connivance, then perhaps it is better to let the attempts at reconcilliation progress as they are.

+1 Latrade, and again I state in case anyone isn't clear: I detest the IRA/Sinn Féin and all they stand for. Same goes for all paramilitaries. However I have very liitle respect for British justice or military operations either.

The point I made to Liamos was more an academic one than anything else.

 

[csirl]

Once again, I didn't say Ireland supported the PIRA. I said they got significant support from people in the South. You made some facitious comment about it being a domestic dispute between UK citizens and the deaths of innocent children in England had nothing to do with the Republic Of Ireland. That's simply not true.

I disagree. Officially speaking, the dispute in NI is an internal UK dispute.

What role did Ireland have in the deaths of innocent children in England - can you specify? My understanding is that the bombings were carried out by NI people on behalf of an NI terrorist group and therefore is an internal UK matter.

 

[Purple]

I disagree. Officially speaking, the dispute in NI is an internal UK dispute.

What role did Ireland have in the deaths of innocent children in England - can you specify? My understanding is that the bombings were carried out by NI people on behalf of an NI terrorist group and therefore is an internal UK matter.

Many members of the PIRA were based here and many attacks were launched from here. In some cases soldiers were shot by snipers from this side of the boarder. In the very early days of the PIRA there was unofficial support from the Irish state. I don’t think we ca wash our hands of this completely.

 

[MrMan]

Kind of comes back to the old cliche of one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Is it fair to justify every action by the PIRA on the basis of the British Military presence? PIRA were responsible for more deaths than any other group over 1000 non-civilian and around 600 civilian. Does it justify funding from Libya? Does it justify that of the around 125 deaths from PIRA activities in England, 68 wer civilian? In order to execute those actions known terrorists/freedom fighters travelled by ferry (in some cases in hijacked cars) from Dublin to Liverpool, can we honestly say that not one person in the Gardai had information about this? Do we really want to start digging too deeply on these issues?

To me that's the whole point of this peace or attempts at peace that no one is clean, that no one wants to be casting too many stones. We shouldn't forget the past, that's not what is being suggested, but unless all sides are prepared to take full responsibility for their actions, inactions, knowledge and connivance, then perhaps it is better to let the attempts at reconcilliation progress as they are.

All very well put, but if you were to answer yes or no to 'would there have been any Irish attacks on Britain if there had been no brutal attempt to control our country by the British' I assume that you would answer 'no'.

What's been done can't be undone and we have moved forward.