KBC KBC basing cohorts on Application date rather than Draw-down dates

[Jazzer1]

I rang kbc this morning in relation to my case. I explained again i applied in Jan 08 and fixed for 2 years why was I deemed not impacted lastweek. I also said to him i contacted Michael mcgrath to put this question last night to kbc.The guy from kbc couldnt answer me , He said you have a letter of complaint put in wait till you see the out come of that!.The same guy last week told the impacted 650 private dwellings customer were only a small cohort of that private dwelling business at that time. I asked him was it an error of theirs that I was over looked and he just said he couldn't answer that.

 

[PJDCol]

I am looking at a case for my friends who fixed at drawdown around May/June 06. This is obviously outside the dates mentioned that are affected by the flier. They have been told they are also not impacted.

However they have a letter from their broker (called a Reasons Why Mortgage Letter) confirming the following:

"Should you decide to choose fixed rate at the beginning of your mortgage, you will have choice of another fixed rate when this expires or you can choose a variable or a tracker rate"

Obviously this is a broker letter and not an official KBC/IIB letter (unlike the flier is). The original complaint we made KBC pushed the whole issue to the broker and said its not their problem. This gives you an idea of their stance on dates outside of the flier.

We have sent the follow up complaint into the FSO but it seems to be on hold until the CB review is over. I will keep people updated on any outcome here.

 

[Daisy duke]

I honestly don’t think we will have a snowball chance in hell of getting them to review cases outside the dates specified. They seem to have the backing of the CB on this.

For my own case I applied for a capped tracker in Oct 06, and ended up in a 3yr fix ( drew down Dec 06). Both of these scenarios should have resulted in me ending up on a tracker rate, but that has not happened.Dara Deering did agree last night to review cases on the fringes of those dates, I will continue to pursue the challenge but ultimately I think it will be a lost cause.

 

[PJDCol]

Yes this could be the case - however going through the transcript of the meeting at the OC yesterday I noted some important comments:

Wim (CEO) said - "We welcome evidence from people who have information specific to their case"

and then was asked: "If broker tells you that you are going to roll onto a tracker, that would be part of your decision?" to which CEO replied "Yes we agreed this with CB".

Surely a letter from your broker telling you that you can roll to a tracker is a prime example of this.

 

[mccoypat94]

Yes this could be the case - however going through the transcript of the meeting at the OC yesterday I noted some important comments:

Wim (CEO) said - "We welcome evidence from people who have information specific to their case"

and then was asked: "If broker tells you that you are going to roll onto a tracker, that would be part of your decision?" to which CEO replied "Yes we agreed this with CB".

Surely a letter from your broker telling you that you can roll to a tracker is a prime example of this.

What constitues evidence in KBCs book? I have nothing only diary entries and records of phone calls between the broker & I
Very little in written evidence except an email that the broker sent to IIB after I requested a change from the original laon offer which was a tracker to a 3 year fixed term.
The time-line and the solicitors should back up my version of events, but as @Daisy duke says, they are going to stonewall me, followed by the ombudsman who will do the same.

Its so disheartening

 

[gnf_ireland]

There's definitely an arguable case for those who applied close to Nov 06 and drew down after Nov 06. - I'd be asking the solicitors who did the purchase for a look through your files to see timelines and if there's anything you have nissed that would back up your argument

I think the date the letter of offer was issued (and accepted/signed) will also be critical here.
Drawdown can be delayed for a number of reasons, including issues with title problems or delays in the sellers signing contracts.
If someone can show they got the letter of offer after 7th November 2006, and signed it after this date - it may make a difference. Moreso if they had other mortgage applications in progress at the time.

 

[gnf_ireland]

However they have a letter from their broker (called a Reasons Why Mortgage Letter) confirming the following:
"Should you decide to choose fixed rate at the beginning of your mortgage, you will have choice of another fixed rate when this expires or you can choose a variable or a tracker rate"

The broker here assumed the same products would be available when the fixed rate expired. There was no guarantee of this, and there is no rate specified. It is a very generic statement, and I seriously doubt you will get any joy here. Realistically any 'complaint' would be with the broker and if I am being honest I cannot see how that statement implicate them. The only wording change that would make sense with the benefit of hindsight is "or a tracker rate, if available"

It may not be the answer you want to hear - but this would be in the 'clutching at straws' category in my view

 

[gnf_ireland]

and then was asked: "If broker tells you that you are going to roll onto a tracker, that would be part of your decision?" to which CEO replied "Yes we agreed this with CB".
Surely a letter from your broker telling you that you can roll to a tracker is a prime example of this.

Yes, if the letter from the broker from those dates clearly state this. The example above on the "Reasons Why Mortgage Letter" does not state this but states you have a choice once the fixed rate expires as to what kind of rate you would go on


I think its very important for everyone to review all material they have about their mortgage, and email conversations with the broker/bank, to check for the word 'tracker' and ECB and see what they say? Its a slow painful exercise, but if they are to complain to the bank and make the case they need this detail

 

[gnf_ireland]

What constitues evidence in KBCs book?

I had a dispute with KBC on a totally different topic a while back. I had sent them an email, asking them a very specific question, which they never answered. My argument was the fact they did not answer the specific question (1 out of 3 asked), meant they were trying to hide something from me or mislead me in the process. Their position was different - they never answered the question.
In the end it went to the FSO, and we agreed a small settlement in mediation. I feel without this email they would not have even agreed to that, as they took a very hard line previously on the complaint.

Given my experience with KBC on the other matter, I think you will need your ducks clearly in a row, be able to tell the story and have some sort of proof - whether it be broker/solicitor notes etc. I am not sure how many have a box with all their mortgage detail stored in it. Maybe emails between partners when discussing aspects of the mortgage application may be useful here...

I know that when I was applying for my mortgage in 2010 (different times I accept), I had 3 applications on the go at a point in time and only made the final decision at the last minute when the letters of offer came in. If others were in this situation, it may assist them somewhat to show the decision was within the dates of the flyer !

 

[grock1982]

gnf_ireland,
I think it's interesting what Michael mcgrath said last night, in relation to customers who
who met with brokers in Feb08 and were introduced to the flyer, therefore having an expectation to roll onto a tracker on expiry from fixed rate. If these customers were led to believe that the flyer was valid up until signing the mortgage contract, then retrospectively, the flyer could be valid.
This is encouraging from our perspective. We met broker in Feb 08, when flyer was active. We made a formal application to kbc in April based on our Feb discussions with broker. We signed mortgage contract in may 08, fixed 5 year.

 

[Sanparom]

I posted following query in another thread, but Brendan cancelled the thread, saying query was answered elsewhere, but I can't find the answer. In a PM, he told me to post my query elsewhere, so here it is. I hope this is ok and that someone can answer me:

This may be a stupid question, but can anyone tell me why KBC only seem to be looking at accounts in the period when the flyer was doing the rounds, but the flyer doesn't apply to other banks and they are still offering redress and compensation? Surely KBC should be forced to look at accounts outside of that timescale and ones which wouldn't have had anything to do with the flyer - maybe based on wording of contract for example. I'd love an explanation if anyone has one because I can't understand why, with KBC, the emphasis is only being put on the flyer.

 

[Jazzer1]

The flyer was brought out in 06 for brokers to generate new business and kbc pulled the flyer in late feb/early March 08. Kbc gave a deadline of feb08.

 

[gnf_ireland]

gnf_ireland,
I think it's interesting what Michael mcgrath said last night, in relation to customers who
who met with brokers in Feb08 and were introduced to the flyer, therefore having an expectation to roll onto a tracker on expiry from fixed rate. If these customers were led to believe that the flyer was valid up until signing the mortgage contract, then retrospectively, the flyer could be valid.
This is encouraging from our perspective. We met broker in Feb 08, when flyer was active. We made a formal application to kbc in April based on our Feb discussions with broker. We signed mortgage contract in may 08, fixed 5 year.

Ok, but lets play devils advocate here. When KBC pulled the flier, how did they do this? Did they simply not issue any more or did they circulate a notice to all brokers that the contents of the flier was no longer valid? Did they alert brokers to the withdrawl of the flier? If they did, then the onus is on the broker to alert the customer accordingly? I don't know the answer, but since they have very specific dates, I would imagine there was some sort of communication they can reference here.

Meeting with a broker and them telling you something does not constitute an offer from KBC. Was the formal application made in April with the same broker? Does the broker have any written communication around discussing the flier?
If I go into a shop today to ask about something and have a conversation around it and leave. Then if I go back 2 months later, what is my expectations around the initial discussion? Things change, and particularly in early-mid 2008 around banking side. The wheels were coming off the wagon at that stage and Bear Stearns etc had just been bailed out.

But of course, I have no idea what your home loan agreement says - I am guessing it would be ambiguios at best.

By all means, put your case together, but I am guessing you will have a very tough fight on your hands. Its very easy for Michael McGrath to ask about this, but this is no guarantee it will be considered by KBC.

 

[gnf_ireland]

This may be a stupid question, but can anyone tell me why KBC only seem to be looking at accounts in the period when the flyer was doing the rounds, but the flyer doesn't apply to other banks and they are still offering redress and compensation? Surely KBC should be forced to look at accounts outside of that timescale and ones which wouldn't have had anything to do with the flyer - maybe based on wording of contract for example. I'd love an explanation if anyone has one because I can't understand why, with KBC, the emphasis is only being put on the flyer.

The flyer was issued to brokers stating that any customer who rolls off a fixed rate would automatically move to a tracker rate.
The reason it applies to KBC mortgages and not other banks is because it was a KBC communication
The reason it applies to broker applications and not direct applications is because it was issued to brokers only
The reason the dates apply as those are the dates which KBC state the flyer was active

The agrument made is people who discussed their mortgage applications with their brokers were influenced to go with KBC and fix based on the belief that they would move to a tracker rate when their fixed rate expired. When someone applies for a mortgage via a broker they normally have a choice of a number of banks and therefore this was the factor that made them choose KBC.

There is nothing in their homeloan agreement to say they would default onto a tracker mortgage when the fixed rate expired, hence the reliance on the flyer !

Customers around the dates impacted now have to show their decision was influenced by the existing of the flyer ! So someone who drew down in October 2006 does not have any case in relation to the flyer for example.

 

[grock1982]

Ok, but lets play devils advocate here. When KBC pulled the flier, how did they do this? Did they simply not issue any more or did they circulate a notice to all brokers that the contents of the flier was no longer valid? Did they alert brokers to the withdrawl of the flier? If they did, then the onus is on the broker to alert the customer accordingly? I don't know the answer, but since they have very specific dates, I would imagine there was some sort of communication they can reference here.

Meeting with a broker and them telling you something does not constitute an offer from KBC. Was the formal application made in April with the same broker? Does the broker have any written communication around discussing the flier?
If I go into a shop today to ask about something and have a conversation around it and leave. Then if I go back 2 months later, what is my expectations around the initial discussion? Things change, and particularly in early-mid 2008 around banking side. The wheels were coming off the wagon at that stage and Bear Stearns etc had just been bailed out.

But of course, I have no idea what your home loan agreement says - I am guessing it would be ambiguios at best.

By all means, put your case together, but I am guessing you will have a very tough fight on your hands. Its very easy for Michael McGrath to ask about this, but this is no guarantee it will be considered by KBC.

Very good points made there. We applied to kbc in march 08, through our broker, in light of what had been discussed in February. Discussions in February, flyer etc where the motivation for choosing a fixed rate with iib at the time. By the time we signed the paper work it was may 08, We were still under the impression that the flyer was active, our broker never said it was expired.

 

[gnf_ireland]

in relation to customers who met with brokers in Feb08 and were introduced to the flyer, therefore having an expectation to roll onto a tracker on expiry from fixed rate. If these customers were led to believe that the flyer was valid up until signing the mortgage contract, then retrospectively, the flyer could be valid.

Personally, I would say someone who met a broker in September 2006, applied in October 2006 and got their Letter of Offer in November 2006 (after the flyer was issued) would be in a stronger position to 'prove' they were influenced by the flyer, as they would have been in regular contact with the broker during the time the flyer was issued and would be naive of KBC to assume the broker would not have highlighted this to them when it came in the door to re-enforce their message


Someone who met a broker in February 2008 would have to show that they discussed the flyer, the broker did not mention the removal of the flyer (depending on how it was withdrawn) and that they applied to no other bank - so they made the decision on what bank to go with based on the initial meeting with a broker. The question can then be rightly asked as to why the mortgage application then took another 6-8 weeks, even to apply in principle ? Again, all of these questions may be possible to answer for some applicants, but probably not all

And please do not get me wrong - I am not against any KBC customers getting a tracker back. I am just talking about the changes of success here, given what was said by KBC or CB (rather than Michael McGrath who can say anything without being able to influence it in real terms)

 

[gnf_ireland]

We made a formal application to kbc in April

We applied to kbc in march 08

The dates are a bit inconsistent here - I think you need to be 100% clear when you raise your complaint to KBC that you are crystal clear on the timelines. Any ambiguity here will be used against you. The closer you are to the February date strengthens your case - obviously.
Did you have any other meetings with the broker from the initial meeting and the one when the application was made? This will also be key in my view? Did you meet any other broker etc?

our broker never said it was expired

And this may be a different matter. Is the issue that the broker choose not to tell you it had expired, or made a mistake in that it had expired and they were not aware of it. All of the blame here may not have been with KBC?


Serious Question:
Does anyone know how the flyer was 'withdrawn' by KBC to the brokers? How were they told?

 

[grock1982]

Application sent to kbc in march 08 with no rate specified. Then in April the broker notified kbc that we have decided on a fixed rate. We only delt with the one broker for the mortgage process

 

[gnf_ireland]

Application sent to kbc in march 08 with no rate specified. Then in April the broker notified kbc that we have decided on a fixed rate.

This is something you will need to convince KBC at some point. Initial application with no rate specified, but decided in April to go fixed rate
They will wonder why the delay in deciding this if you had agreed it in February based on flyer...
As I said, just playing devils advocate here !

Again, all goes back to how the brokers were told the flyer was withdrawn - and whether they failed to tell you or not !

 

[grock1982]

Thanks for your insight. Looks like a uphill battle on our side.