"If crypto is not the answer to our money problems, what is?" Good FT article

[Duke of Marmalade]

I get that some people don't like crypto, don't understand crypto and don't see any value in it.

All Nobel Laureates. The vast majority of investment analysts and economists. All central bankers.

It's an emerging technology,

Fancy term for running a glorified spreadsheet.

that has gained a cult like following so there is a lot of nonsense around it.

Agreed

However, while the price crashes - development in the area continues. The difference in the technology

There's that word again. There is far more technology in a touch screen, for example.

from the first bull run to the most recent bull run is vast and there has been a lot of progress made. Ethereum yesterday moved to Proof-of-Stake

Yep it doesn't come any more crude than Proof of Work. Trillions and trillions of mindless guesses at a SHA reversal is stone age stuff.

Bitcoin's value may be way down from it's peak but it's still worth the same as the previous peak! The "bottom" value of crypto has only been increasing. Hopefully in time the a lot of the crap coins and projects will fail and drop out with only the good ones remaining - like any emerging technology.

You like that word. I think some millennials are persuaded that being a crypto fan is a badge of how technology savvy they are. Sad

 

[tecate]

All Nobel Laureates. The vast majority of investment analysts and economists. All central bankers.

"The vast majority of investment analysts" is incorrect.
As regards Nobels + economists + central bankers, most of the examples you've provided down through the years have been all three at one stage or other of their "in the pay of the state" careers. So in essence you're talking about a small group - who have spent their lives working on the very centralised systems that Bitcoin and other projects offer an alternative to. You think they like the idea of being replaced by or shown up by code?

You crossed out his claim that they don't understand. Three words -> Fax Machine Guy .

He didn't understand that new technology at the time but that didn't stop him flexing his ego, not sticking to his own lane and commenting on something he had no earthly idea about. He features prominently within the group of naysayers you've relied on over the past 5 years.

Fancy term for running a glorified spreadsheet.

If you can't see the implications of A. decentralized hard money and B. smart contracts where code is king after 5 years of discussion, you're way beyond help.

There is far more technology in a touch screen, for example.

See above.

Yep it doesn't come any more crude than Proof of Work. Trillions and trillions of mindless guesses at a SHA reversal is stone age stuff.

Wait and see as the 'environmental objectors' will find some other excuse to turn on Ethereum (because it was never about the environment with most of these objectors).
You on the other hand said you had no difficulty at all with Bitcoin's energy use. Your objection is that its unimpressive - while practically everyone else agrees that it offers the best network security you can have. Unless you're saying that PoW doesn't offer the best network security going, all that remains of your point is sour grapes.

You like that word. I think some millennials are persuaded that being a crypto fan is a badge of how technology savvy they are. Sad

Maybe @OEP1990 should have faxed that post to you instead.

 

[OEP1990]

All Nobel Laureates. The vast majority of investment analysts and economists. All central bankers.

Fancy term for running a glorified spreadsheet.

Agreed

There's that word again. There is far more technology in a touch screen, for example.

Yep it doesn't come any more crude than Proof of Work. Trillions and trillions of mindless guesses at a SHA reversal is stone age stuff.

You like that word. I think some millennials are persuaded that being a crypto fan is a badge of how technology savvy they are. Sad

Ha, good man.

 

[MugsGame]

Would anyone like to invest in my homeopathic database startup?

 

[tecate]

Would anyone like to invest in my homeopathic database startup?

Not my bag, but thanks for the offer. Homeopathy would be very much a faith-based thing. I prefer transparent rules via code.

You're in the right neck of the woods though. I'm sure you will get some takers from the faith-based followers of Saint Jerome. I'd start with the Duke - he tells me blind faith and 'trust' in Saint Jerome is fine, so I'm sure he can stretch that 'logic' to homeopathy.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@tecate my guess is that @MugsGame* doesn't believe in his homeopathic database either, he is just trying to hook a few suckers. Just as I suggest that the vast majority of those that have launched the 10,000 cryptos know it is just snake oil but boyo given this internet age you only need to hook about 1 in a 1,000 gullible millennials trying to get Very Rich Very Quick, and you will get VRVQ.

* @MugsGame sincere apologies if you are sincere in your creation and not just trying to sucker a few bitcoin out of @tecate

 

[tecate]

* @MugsGame sincere apologies if you are sincere in your creation and just trying to sucker a few bitcoin out of @tecate

Ok, is there any of that sincerity left for the projects that are working their asses off to try and build something tangible - or do you want to continue to tar them all with the one brush?

As for the projects that started out with the very worst of intentions, you might also acknowledge that this is nothing new - and is in no way exclusive to digital assets. It has happened in every sector down through the years.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bitcoin's value may be way down from it's peak but it's still worth the same as the previous peak! The "bottom" value of crypto has only been increasing.

bitcoin price was 70k in November '21, its peak. Its previous peak was in April '21 at 64k. In between in July '21 it hit a "bottom" of 33k. So far from being worth the same as its previous peak it is a big drop on the previous bottom.
I would not accuse you of porkies, just cognitive bias - you want your statement to be a true and impressive put down to "some people who don't like crypto" and so in your own mind it becomes a true statement. It happened to me once. I said there were 7,000 cryptos. @tecate eat me alive and correctly pointed out that there were "only" 2,000. There are of course now over 10,000, but that does not excuse my cognitive error.

 

[tecate]

bitcoin price was 70k in November '21, its peak. Its previous peak was in April '21 at 64k. In between in July '21 it hit a "bottom" of 33k. So far from being worth the same as its previous peak it is a big drop on the previous bottom.

Lord save us. So you're now picking out price levels from within one Bitcoin bull market, Duke? He rightly referred to the peak of the overall bull market. There's no cognitive bias at play....except for yours that is. It peaked at $67,617 - not $70k. If you want to identify cognitive bias, it's right there. You'll notice that you didn't round down the other way and knock off $3k/ That's no coincidence.

I would not accuse you of porkies, just cognitive bias - you want your statement to be a true and impressive put down to "some people who don't like crypto" and so in your own mind it becomes a true statement.

lol. I don't think he was around for the entire agony. Do you want to tell him the number of times you referred to how savage it was that Bitcoin peaked at $20k, the poor craturs that were hoodwinked, etc.?
And as regards the "some people who don't like crypto", didn't you make a recent confession in that you belong to said group? Are you having a relapse or is this a case of split personality disorder?

It happened to me once.

Once!!? Jaysus Duke yer riddled with it.

I said there were 7,000 cryptos. @tecate eat me alive and correctly pointed out that there were "only" 2,000. There are of course now over 10,000, but that does not excuse my cognitive error.

So what you're saying is that over the past five years the space continues to expand at pace despite your protestations.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Oh yes the space expands. I was tempted to ICO my own Marmalade coin but would I enjoy screwing $100m from the gullible millennial suckers? I mean I might catch you and you don’t really deserve that.

 

[tecate]

Oh yes the space expands. I was tempted to ICO my own Marmalade coin but would I enjoy screwing $100m from the poor millennial suckers?

Indeed - you were invited to launch MarmaladeCoin countless times but I guess when you were writing your whitepaper, you changed your mind and decided that any old project couldn't be spun up to replace Bitcoin.

 

[time to plan]

Not my bag, but thanks for the offer. Homeopathy would be very much a faith-based thing.

Classic!

 

[TinyChamp]

Would anyone like to invest in my homeopathic database startup?

Ehhhh.... le me think about that one

 

[tecate]

Retail outlets and the likes of Mastercard are simply pandering to a cult which sees buying things with crypto as the equivalent of blessing yourself.

This pandering is getting waaaay out of hand.

Mastercard is bringing crypto trading to banks.
N26 adds crypto trading
USDT to be made available via 24,000 ATMs throughout Brazil.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

This pandering is getting waaaay out of hand.

Mastercard is bringing crypto trading to banks.
N26 adds crypto trading
USDT to be made available via 24,000 ATMs throughout Brazil.

The cult is still very alive but I am not seeing the Mastercard move as any sign that people are either using or accepting crypto in everyday purchases.
My understanding is that the attraction of USDT is that it is a $. Not an expert but I presume some Brazilians see the crypto form as more practical than the conventional form. This is no way an adoption by Brazilians of bitcoin. But I accept that it does support the view that Tether’s imminent implosion has been exaggerated.

 

[tecate]

The cult is still very alive but I am not seeing the Mastercard move as any sign that people are either using or accepting crypto in everyday purchases.

I know what you're saying Duke. This pandering is getting waaay out of hand. I'm not sure what these guys are thinking. I mean if they white-label crypto purchases on the cards issued in association with these member banks, that's just more of it. Bank account holders having the ability to buy/sell crypto through their online banking, mobile banking or local branch - It'll count for nothing. It's just crypto green washing. And their Chief Digital Officer saying "crypto is on the cusp of going mainstream", well them's just ....words.

There must be something in the water though as the CTO of Walmart is riddled with it too. During the week, he came out with this giant whopper:

“Crypto will become an important part of how customers transact. We want to make sure that we make it as friction free for customers to be able to transact, and to be able to buy, and how they are able to derive value out of it"

My understanding is that the attraction of USDT is that it is a $. Not an expert but I presume some Brazilians see the crypto form as more practical than the conventional form. This is no way an adoption by Brazilians of bitcoin. But I accept that it does support the view that Tether’s imminent implosion has been exaggerated.

Well, this is rather complementary. I would never have seen you as a Tether fan. I mean they could still have a gaping big hole in their balance sheet although they have sold off all commercial paper now and are holding T-bills instead.

In most of the developing world, the default has always been to gather up some USD when their own currency goes to mush. Here's the problem Duke. I've never met anyone who holds USDT or has held it for a time - who doesn't have a few satoshis on hand also. I mean, you can have them there in the same wallet - side by side. It's getting people accustomed to the digital wallet that's the point of friction.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I know what you're saying Duke. This pandering is getting waaay out of hand. I'm not sure what these guys are thinking. I mean if they white-label crypto purchases on the cards issued in association with these member banks, that's just more of it. Bank account holders having the ability to buy/sell crypto through their online banking, mobile banking or local branch - It'll count for nothing. It's just crypto green washing. And their Chief Digital Officer saying "crypto is on the cusp of going mainstream", well them's just ....words.

I think I was able to distil out the sarcasm (what was it Oscar Wilde said?). But the CDO talking up crypto is like the Pope seeing a good future for Rosary beads.

There must be something in the water though as the CTO of Walmart is riddled with it too. During the week, he came out with this giant whopper.

Ahh! That razor sharp wit again. Well I Googled this CTO of Walmart guy. He sees a big future for crypto in the Metaverse. For those unfamiliar with cultspeak this is how Wiki describes the Metaverse:

the metaverse is a hypothetical iteration of the Internet as a single, universal and immersive virtual world that is facilitated by the use of virtual reality (VR) and augmented reality (AR) headsets. In colloquial use, a metaverse is a network of 3D virtual worlds focused on social connection.

I am not familiar with the place but I could certainly see bitcoin having a role in it wherever it is. Not somewhere that I personally will be going on holiday.

Well, this is rather complementary. I would never have seen you as a Tether fan. I mean they could still have a gaping big hole in their balance sheet although they have sold off all commercial paper now and are holding T-bills instead.

If that is true indeed, then I agree that is a fingers to the Roubinis of this world and a disappointment to me. My understanding was that the propaganda of instant Tether implosion was a big deadweight on bitcoin achieving those heights of $500k predicted by the cult. Now that that existential threat has been removed one might have expected a bitcoin bounce.

In most of the developing world, the default has always been to gather up some USD when their own currency goes to mush. Here's the problem Duke. I've never met anyone who holds USDT or has held it for a time - who doesn't have a few satoshis on hand also. I mean, you can have them there in the same wallet - side by side. It's getting people accustomed to the digital wallet that's the point of friction.

Yes, that was my understanding. Tether was just the chips at the casino. Something you gather up when you want to move from the roulette to the craps table. It is a surprise to me that this playground would support 30,000 ATMs in Brazil. Probably more to keep their precious US$ out of the clutches of the authorities, but I am not familiar enough with Brazilian conditions. Very much doubt it is in anticipation of buying their coffee beans with crypto or taking their holidays in the Metaverse.

 

[tecate]

But the CDO talking up crypto is like the Pope seeing a good future for Rosary beads.

So Mastercard are talking up their crypto book. Interesting.

I Googled this CTO of Walmart guy. He sees a big future for crypto in the Metaverse. For those unfamiliar with cultspeak this is how Wiki describes the Metaverse:

Cultspeak? I thought crypto folk were being tarred and feathered exclusively with that moniker? I'm open to correction but this Metaverse thing is in no way the exclusive preserve of crypto. Should I take it that anyone interested or involved in any new technology then is in a cult and is a cultist?

Well over the past 2 years, Zuckerberg has poured $15 billion into the metaverse. I guess he must see something or other in it.

I am not familiar with the place but I could certainly see bitcoin having a role in it wherever it is. Not somewhere that I personally will be going on holiday.

You do yourself a disservice Duke. You've invested more than a fair few hours in this discussion and it's virtual is it not.

If that is true indeed, then I agree that is a fingers to the Roubinis of this world and a disappointment to me. My understanding was that the propaganda of instant Tether implosion was a big deadweight on bitcoin achieving those heights of $500k predicted by the cult. Now that that existential threat has been removed one might have expected a bitcoin bounce.

Disappointment? Surely you wouldn't actually want them to collapse? They could still be underfunded - anything is possible. However, they are gearing up for stablecoin regulation. They now have a top 5 auditor on board - but still running with attestations - not audits...yet.
I don't think Tether fud was holding crypto back in any real way. Only newcomers would have been phased by it.

Probably more to keep their precious US$ out of the clutches of the authorities, but I am not familiar enough with Brazilian conditions. Very much doubt it is in anticipation of buying their coffee beans with crypto or taking their holidays in the Metaverse.

Ah Brazilian conditions? A history of run-away inflation and currency devaluation combined with capital controls? That would probably be it alright. Choose the means to buy those coffee beans is a multiple stage process Duke.
Having a specific means to pay for them is part one. A lack of faith in fiat currency it seems may be driving people towards figuring out how to operate a digital wallet. Stage 2 - you have the means in place already - even if initial motivation wasn't payments. You have the means so its hardly a massive leap to whip out your phone and make a payment should it suit your purposes to do so at that point.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So Mastercard are talking up their crypto book. Interesting.

Trademarks, or companies for that matter, don't talk. The CDO was presumably recruited because he was a cultist. Same with Fidelity Digital Assets - their guys also have the faith. Like car dealerships. Salesperson A is trained to tell you how wonderful E-cars are. Salesperson B explains the huge advantages of petrol over E. If we want to believe that Mastercard does have some overall personality it would be cult wishful thinking of the highest order to say that it has gone crypto.

Disappointment? Surely you wouldn't actually want them to collapse?

Well, yes. I was looking forward to it but then your last post dashed my fantasies.

They could still be underfunded - anything is possible. However, they are gearing up for stablecoin regulation. They now have a top 5 auditor on board - but still running with attestations - not audits...yet.

Great, so I can still indulge my fantasy.

Ah Brazilian conditions? A history of run-away inflation and currency devaluation combined with capital controls?

I thought the solution to that was bitcoin not US$ fiat currency. 30,000 ATMs to dispense Tether, not bitcoin.

Having a specific means to pay for them is part one. A lack of faith in fiat currency it seems may be driving people towards figuring out how to operate a digital wallet. Stage 2 - you have the means in place already - even if initial motivation wasn't payments. You have the means so its hardly a massive leap to whip out your phone and make a payment should it suit your purposes to do so at that point.

I see. Wean the gentiles on to it and before long they will all be cultists. It seems that after spending their $30 bitcoin intro, the El Salvadorians didn't fall for it and the great proselytization of that unfortunate people has been a complete flop.

 

[tecate]

Trademarks, or companies for that matter, don't talk. The CDO was presumably recruited because he was a cultist. Same with Fidelity Digital Assets - their guys also have the faith. Like car dealerships. Salesperson A is trained to tell you how wonderful E-cars are. Salesperson B explains the huge advantages of petrol over E. If we want to believe that Mastercard does have some overall personality it would be cult wishful thinking of the highest order to say that it has gone crypto.

Seems like you're trying to have it both ways but as you wish. Let's use this last update from Mastercard as the case in point. They're effectively enabling a whole host of banks to offer crypto. You say that's pandering...but wait, who are they pandering to exactly in that example? The banks? It must be the banks they're pandering to? But the banks are like mastercard - they've demanded this product so that they can replicate the pandering. There really is no end to this pandering!
So they're enabling people as far as crypto is concerned and at some stage they will rug pull the whole offering away again? Is that the devious plan? I'm kind of onboard with all of that - including the rug pull. I'd sooner see people replace them - so as long as they introduce a few more people to the future of finance, I'm more than happy with that. Let the pandering continue.

Well, yes. I was looking forward to it

I suppose we should give you points for honesty. I mean, it's a bit bitter and twisted to want them to collapse - and all the misery that would likely bring someone or other just because you despise crypto...but like I said - points for honesty (as this is the reality for many in the Tether FUD camp - they're not as forthcoming as regards that element of it as you are).

Great, so I can still indulge my fantasy.

And this has always been my problem with Tether FUD. I would never ever suggest that we take Tether's word for it - but by the very same token, I would never ever suggest we take Tether FUDsters word for it either - not without providing solid evidence. And the solid evidence was always lacking. It's very much in my interests to be able to gauge if Tether is about to fail so I'd be a fool to not pay attention. But these FUDsters have been less than useful as most of them are driven by a certain venom rather than a neutral altruistic concern. That's the issue.

I thought the solution to that was bitcoin not US$ fiat currency. 30,000 ATMs to dispense Tether, not bitcoin.

I'll redirect to my previous comment. I welcome people getting on board with USDT because USDT and BTC go hand in glove. Everyone has said that Tether is the big enemy of the state but the reality is that they're furthering the US agenda all the while. I haven't met one individual who has owned or does own USDT and doesn't own BTC. If you've gotten comfortable with using a digital wallet that holds USDT, it's a whole lot easier to make the decision to hold BTC also.

I see. Wean the gentiles on to it and before long they will all be cultists. It seems that after spending their $30 bitcoin intro, the El Salvadorians didn't fall for it and the great proselytization of that unfortunate people has been a complete flop.

Yes, and that's the way that it's being spun on your side of the fence. El Salvador and its bitcoin experiment are doing just fine. Of that I'm 110% confident.