How long can the forming of a government take?

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Purple said:
You are conflating law and aspiration.
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Can you show me the law that the Green party are breaking by allowing its members in NI have a say in what the Green party does?
Or is your desire to prevent such interference just an aspiration of your own?
 
WolfeTone said:
Can you show me the law that the Green party are breaking by allowing its members in NI have a say in what the Green party does?
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Where did I say they were breaking the law? In case you don't realise it I was responding to the post I quoted.

WolfeTone said:
Or is your desire to prevent such interference just an aspiration of your own?
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I'm not trying to stop it. I'm saying that I don't like it.
 
Ceist Beag said:
Well we can see that Wolfie is back with a bang ... another thread completely gone down a rabbit hole...
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I beg your pardon? Exactly at what point did I bring this thread down a rabbit hole?

If you hadn't noticed - which appears to be the case - I'm not exactly engaging by myself here. The question of Green Party members in NI interfering in the election processes here was raised. I merely gave my views with sight on the Constitution and the rights of Irish people. It is wholly pertinent to that issue.
You may be better identifying posters who quote me for no reason, have no opinion, why quote me? Posts #85 and #91 and #95 are useful.
 
WolfeTone said:
Watch out! The rabbit-hole police are about!
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Well if things don't go as planned and the mooted FG/FF/Green coalition falls before the starting line then there's a chance that the terrorists from the UK will be part of a new government.
 
WolfeTone said:
It doesn't explicitly claim it, but implicitly it does.
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Care to quote that section? I can't seem to find it.

WolfeTone said:
the rights of the people to lay claim to all of the territory, including islands and seas, by virtue of birthright, born on the island of Ireland - as recognised internationally, the whole thing, not just the 26-county republic.
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It entitles anyone born on the island of Ireland to be part of a notional grouping of people! No more. That is in no way a claim on any territory. The very fact that is is called out as the 'island' of Ireland is an acknowledgement of the existence of the two separate states.

WolfeTone said:
My question to you was, do you think NI is a foreign country?
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As we're talking constitutions and entities recognised internationally as states, in that context Northern Ireland absolutely is a foreign country.
 
WolfeTone said:
No. Under Irish law they are regarded as Irish citizens if they wish to be recognised as such.
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This isn't correct. There is a lot of misinformation on this topic and no one has a right under Irish law to be an Irish citizen just because you wish to be recognised as one. If you or your parent were born on the island of Ireland before 2005, you are an Irish citizen. If not your right to Irish citizenship is subject to the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 and associated regulations. The Department of Foreign Affairs makes this clear. https://dfa.ie/citizenship/.

But even if the NI Greens have Irish citizenship or 'identify' as Irish this is neither here nor there. Citizenship in itself is not a justification for meddling. In 2006 Russia granted citizenship to various Abkhazians and South Ossetians in Georgia, thereby creating a 'Russian' population to 'protect' and thereby justify the subsequent Russian incursion into Georgia. Russia's annexation of the Crimea was similarly justified.

WolfeTone said:
In any case, it is not interference in our electoral system. It is an internal party matter. If FG or FF are concerned about it, they should pull the plug on forming a govt with them.
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It's not an internal party matter. Clare Bailey has called for the rejection of the proposed programme for government. Apart from the absurdity of Ms. Bailey advocating policies for which she will never have to pay taxes to implement, it is an example of 'soft power', i.e. trying to influence the political sphere in another country by agenda framing, obtaining a preferred outcome etc., by a political actor in a non-EU state. It's no different than the Turkish president asking Turks in Germany to boycott the CDU in Germany's 2017 election. And while Ms Bailey lives in a democracy, it still is foreign influence; it may not be malign but it still is unacceptable. It just provides a model that could be cloned by non-free states to justify interference in EU affairs and in the affairs of EU member states.
 
Thought experiment. The Greens happen to be organised along all Ireland lines. But in fact their movement is global. So imagine they were organised at a World or even European level, which logically is consistent with their ideology. How would we feel if the World Green Movement had a vote on the PfG? It wouldn't be unconstitutional.
 
PMU said:
Clare Bailey has called for the rejection of the proposed programme for government. Apart from the absurdity of Ms. Bailey advocating policies for which she will never have to pay taxes to implement, it is an example of 'soft power', i.e. trying to influence the political sphere in another country by agenda framing, obtaining a preferred outcome etc., by a political actor in a non-EU state. It's no different than the Turkish president asking Turks in Germany to boycott the CDU in Germany's 2017 election. And while Ms Bailey lives in a democracy, it still is foreign influence; it may not be malign but it still is unacceptable. It just provides a model that could be cloned by non-free states to justify interference in EU affairs and in the affairs of EU member states.
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I agree
 
There are 700-800 Green Party members in Northern Ireland. None of them have a vote in Dáil elections.
There are about 1950 Green Party members on the island.
If every member in the Republic voted ‘Yes’ and every member in NI voted Not, the PfG would be defeated.
This should not be.
 
Drakon said:
This should not be.
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Are you conflating the PfG as having some legislative basis?

Has anyone here actually read, or looked at the PfG?

I would implore you to read the part about a Shared Island, here is a snippet:

Mission: A Shared Island
We are committed to working with all communities and traditions on the island to build consensus
around a shared future....

We will:
• Establish a Unit within the Department of An Taoiseach to work towards a consensus on a
shared island. This unit will examine the political, social, economic and cultural
considerations underpinning a future in which all traditions are mutually respected.
• Ensure that the Northern Ireland deal, New Decade, New Approach is implemented in full.
We acknowledge that full implementation of this agreement and its predecessors is crucial,
and we will work with others to achieve that goal.
• Continue to utilise the All Island Civic Dialogue as a forum for addressing Brexit-related
issues and other challenges arising for the island.
• Enhance, develop and deepen all aspects of north-south cooperation and the all-island
economy...and on and on and on

Item No. 1 on the agenda of some here is to stop those Northern Greens from having a say in their own party's participation in a government that promises to interfere in their daily lives!

Such a mindset derives from the playbook and mindset of fringe extremist republican/loyalist flag-waving baboons. The politics of exclusion and division, rather than inclusion and co-operation.

Trying to exclude Irish Green Party members from their right to vote in Green party affairs is guaranteed to pull the Green Party out of government formation. They are under no obligation to participate if they choose not to.
My understanding is that the Green 'No' vote is less than 250 (and not necessarily Northern)
 
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From wiki

"the William Drennan Cumann in Queens University, Belfast, and the Watty Graham Cumann in UU Magee, Derry, which subsequently became official units of Fianna Fáil's youth wing, attaining full membership and voting rights, and attained official voting delegates at the 2012 Árd Fheis. On 23 February 2008, it was announced that a former Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) councillor, Colonel Harvey Bicker, had joined Fianna Fáil.[73]"
 
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