How long can the forming of a government take?

[Purple]

The first time they jumped into bed with FF they brought us BER certs and banned the lightbulb. This time you'd think they be happy with the magic beans that are banning of diesel/petrol cars, banning natural gas and oil exploration and other tomfoolery like pouring money into offshore wind. The only thing they didn't get was a policy that all newborn babies must be eaten in order save the planet. But I guess vegan Greens might baulk at that one.

BER certification was a great idea. I don't know about you but I have no problem buying light bulbs. The diesel thing was a big mistake last time out but the market it shifting to electric cars (for good or ill). I'm not a fan on banning oil exploration, although so far it's been a waste of billions for those who have looked.
Offshore wind is also of questionable economic value. Nuclear is the only proven reliable green energy but there is an entrenched fear of it, born of ignorance, amongst most of the population. That said we already have nuclear power stations; they are in Wales.

 

[Drakon]

RaeNua and SF? I doubt it.

Sorry, using that pun from a few years ago.

Not Renua (Lucinda Creighton), but ReaNua (Michael and Danny Healy-Rae TDs, their niece that looks like Michael Jackson, their nephew, and the son “Assault & Vinegar).

 

[Drakon]

Wave power is the way forward. Waves and tides. 24/7.

 

[Purple]

Wave power is the way forward. Waves and tides. 24/7.

Yea, if only anyone could come up with a wave generator that actually worked.

 

[Purple]

Sorry, using that pun from a few years ago.

Not Renua (Lucinda Creighton), but ReaNua (Michael and Danny Healy-Rae TDs, their niece that looks like Michael Jackson, their nephew, and the son “Assault & Vinegar).

Ah, I'm a bit slow today (maybe the "today" is unnecessary).

 

[PMU]

Yea, I've a big problem with the NI Greens having a vote in this. At least the majority of the votes are in this country, unlike a certain other Party where all decisions on what they do are made in the UK.

I'm surprised this hasn't evoked more discussion. The UK is no longer an EU member state and last year the EU Parliament adopted a resolution ((ref: P9_TA(2019)0031) on the dangers of foreign interference in national and EU democratic processes. Does the intervention of the NI Greens not constitute foreign interference? They are not in the EU. By any standard it is trying to influence political decision making beyond one's own political sphere. Is this really any different than e.g. Turkey's attempt in the 2017 German election to dissuade German Turks for voting for the CDU?

 

[WolfeTone]

Does the intervention of the NI Greens not constitute foreign interference?

No. Under Irish law they are regarded as Irish citizens if they wish to be recognised as such.


In any case, it is not interference in our electoral system. It is an internal party matter. If FG or FF are concerned about it, they should pull the plug on forming a govt with them.

 

[Purple]

No. Under Irish law they are regarded as Irish citizens if they wish to be recognised as such.

And are the Green Party members in Northern Ireland Irish citizens? They have the option of being Irish citizens but have they exercised that option?
I'm sure you are aware that having Irish citizenship doesn't entitle you to vote in this country so why does holding Irish citizenship mean that it isn't interference in our political process by people in a foreign country?

I don't see this being as big a deal as the Shinners who are actually run from the UK by a group of largely unelected (former?) terrorists but it is still concerning.

In any case, it is not interference in our electoral system. It is an internal party matter. If FG or FF are concerned about it, they should pull the plug on forming a govt with them.

Delegates from a foreign country are telling elected members of our Parliament what to do and you don't think that's interference in our political process from a foreign country. How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Delboy]

The Green Party are constituted as an all-Ireland party. Other parties are set up similarly and I believe more will go that route as the numbers up North continue to change.
While it's clear some in the South are concerned with that, I would guess that equal numbers are not and see it as a good thing given our 'history' and 'ties' to the North.
For example, I wouldn't call the North a 'foreign country' but each to their own!

 

[WolfeTone]

And are the Green Party members in Northern Ireland Irish citizens? They have the option of being Irish citizens but have they exercised that option?
I'm sure you are aware that having Irish citizenship doesn't entitle you to vote in this country so why does holding Irish citizenship mean that it isn't interference in our political process by people in a foreign country?

Because they are not voting in our political process. It is an internal party matter. If the Greens, or anyone else for that matter, want to constitute to allow Tibetan monks isolated in the Himalayas become party members and have a say on whether the party leadership should accept the PFG in Ireland, then it really is their business.
What's important is that this information has not been kept from the public. It hasn't. It may be a case that some voters were unaware of the Green Partys All-Ireland make-up, but ignorance is no defence.

Delegates from a foreign country

Since when was NI a foreign country? There is only one country, Ireland, which in part is judicially administered by a foreign power, Britain, in other part , by the people of Ireland themselves. Such a part, under British administration, being recognised commonly under the title 'Northern Ireland'.

Northern Ireland is as much a part of the Irish nation as my constituency in Dublin Central is.

 

[Purple]

Because they are not voting in our political process. It is an internal party matter. If the Greens, or anyone else for that matter, want to constitute to allow Tibetan monks isolated in the Himalayas become party members and have a say on whether the party leadership should accept the PFG in Ireland, then it really is their business.
What's important is that this information has not been kept from the public. It hasn't. It may be a case that some voters were unaware of the Green Partys All-Ireland make-up, but ignorance is no defence.

I'm not saying it's secret. I'm saying that I have a problem with people from another country telling our elected political representatives what to do.

Since when was NI a foreign country? There is only one country, Ireland, which in part is judicially administered by a foreign power, Britain, in other part , by the people of Ireland themselves. Such a part, under British administration, being recognised commonly under the title 'Northern Ireland'.

Northern Ireland is as much a part of the Irish nation as my constituency in Dublin Central is.

No, Northern Ireland is part of the UK and is a different country to Ireland. You may not wish it to be so but that doesn't change the political, legal and social reality.

 

[Leo]

There is only one country, Ireland, which in part is judicially administered by a foreign power, Britain,

You'd wonder why the constitution was modified to remove that claim then...with that amendment being carried by 94%.

 

[Purple]

The Green Party are constituted as an all-Ireland party. Other parties are set up similarly and I believe more will go that route as the numbers up North continue to change.
While it's clear some in the South are concerned with that, I would guess that equal numbers are not and see it as a good thing given our 'history' and 'ties' to the North.
For example, I wouldn't call the North a 'foreign country' but each to their own!

"The South" isn't a country. "Ireland" is the name of this country. The Shinners are run from Northern Ireland so in effect they are a foreign run party. The Greens are run from Ireland but have delegates in Northern Ireland. As a patriotic Irishman I certainly won't be voting for any party that compromises our national sovereignty by giving decision making powers to our former colonial masters.

 

[WolfeTone]

You'd wonder why the constitution was modified to remove that claim then...with that amendment being carried by 94%.

Except no such claim was ever modified. The only claim ever removed was that Irish government laid claim over the territory known as NI and as such had a right to administer there.
But the Irish government is a different entity to the Irish Nation, which under Irish law, lays claim to the whole island - as carried by 94% in the South and I recall, some 70% of people in NI.

 

[WolfeTone]

I'm saying that I have a problem with people from another country telling our elected political representatives what to do.

They are not telling them what to do - as in giving them orders that they must follow, if thats what you mean? They are expressing their opinion as party members. If they were in a position to give orders that must be followed then that would be different, there would be little point in continuing with this PFG.
They are expressing their views and recommending to other party members to follow suit. The other party members can make up their own minds. Its all perfectly normal and healthy.

 

[Leo]

But the Irish government is a different entity to the Irish Nation, which under Irish law, lays claim to the whole island - as carried by 94% in the South and I recall, some 70% of people in NI.

No, Article 2 used to be:

The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas

That was removed and replaced with an entitlement for anyone born on the island to claim Irish citizenship. Allowing someone to claim citizenship and claiming a territory as your own are two very different things.

They also removed the 'pending the re-integration of the national territory' piece and replaced that with a 'firm will' to unite all under a united Ireland, specifically calling out that they are two separate jurisdictions.

 

[Purple]

They are not telling them what to do - as in giving them orders that they must follow, if thats what you mean? They are expressing their opinion as party members. If they were in a position to give orders that must be followed then that would be different, there would be little point in continuing with this PFG.
They are expressing their views and recommending to other party members to follow suit. The other party members can make up their own minds. Its all perfectly normal and healthy.

1/3 of the delegates are in Northern Ireland and a 2/3 majority is required to enter government. That's a controlling vote.

 

[Purple]

No, Article 2 used to be:



That was removed and replaced with an entitlement for anyone born on the island to claim Irish citizenship. Allowing someone to claim citizenship and claiming a territory as your own are two very different things.

They also removed the 'pending the re-integration of the national territory' piece and replaced that with a 'firm will' to unite all under a united Ireland, specifically calling out that they are two separate jurisdictions.

And article 9 of the constitution states that "Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law". Therefore being born in Northern Ireland, or Ireland, doesn't confer any automatic right to citizenship unless a parent is a citizen or has an automatic right to citizenship.
No amount of aspirational fluff changes the facts.

 

[Leo]

No amount of aspirational fluff changes the facts.

Yep, no way the Good Friday Agreement would have been possible with any semblance of territorial claim remaining.

 

[WolfeTone]

Ok, we are in danger of falling into ambiguous genius of the GFA, it being all things to all people, so its possible we all have different interpretations.

That was removed and replaced with an entitlement for anyone born on the island to claim Irish citizenship. Allowing someone to claim citizenship and claiming a territory as your own are two very different things.

Except it wasn't. There is no entitlement for anyone born on the island of Ireland to claim Irish citizenship in Article 2. There is a right for those born on the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the "Irish Nation" which, Art 1 sets out to be inalienable, indefeasible and sovereign right to develop life, political and economic etc....

They also removed the 'pending the re-integration of the national territory' piece and replaced that with a 'firm will' to unite all under a united Ireland, specifically calling out that they are two separate jurisdictions.

Yes, 'pending re-integration' implies that every Irish government is duty bound to pursue and prepare for that objective. I can see how from a Unionist perspective that would be considered aggressive or intimidating. The other controversial element of that Article was "and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory" . Again from a Unionist perspective it is understandable the sense of hostility to this.

So those articles have been diluted with more aspirational language, yet the territorial claim remains, Art 3 "It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland" .

But admittedly, we can go around the houses on this one until the cows come home....its just a matter of interpretation. Do you think NI is a 'foreign country'? I don't.

I suspect the Greens dont either. Come to think of it, I doubt FF do, im not sure if FG do, certainly not SF, nor the SDLP for that matter. PBP are also an all-ireland political organisation.
So my guess is that, somewhere in the region of 80% of all political persuasions, north and south, do not consider NI - or conversely, The Republic, as foreign.